Clashing Mindsets
When I went to Germany to snatch my Little Rib away from “evil socialism”, she was excited at first. America! Land of opportunities! Land of Ben Affleck! Land of shopping 24/7!
Her enthusiasm soon gave way to the bitter realization that most people actually speak English and rarely understand German.
“This stinks!” she told me, in German, of course.
“I know. I feel the same way, but give it some time and your English will improve.”
“And have you noticed how Americans pronounce Volkswagen? They don’t even try to get it right!”
“Yes, it’s horrible.”
“Does the rest of America know that it gets this hot here in Las Vegas? And what is the government going to do about it?”
“Nothing, Schnuckie. You just have to learn to live with it.”
“They could at least pay the power bill, considering we have to run the A/C all day and all night. This is outrageous!”
“I don’t think Bush is concerned about that right now.”
Speaking of Bush. When I first met my Little Rib she was as anti-Bush as one could ever be. It didn’t really surprise me, because it was one of those realities that I had to face every time I traveled to Germany. It’s almost impossible to find a person who doesn’t have anything bad to say about the President of the United States. Well, you learn to live with it, and most important: You learn to keep your mouth shut if you don’t want to get into an argument. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never had a problem standing up for my new home, but it wears on you having to go through the same discussions over and over again. In addition to that oftentimes there wasn’t really any interest in honest discussions. To me it seemed as if people were just trying to vent their anger.
Thank God my Little Rib has always been more open-minded than most Germans! Misguided by the German media she would throw her best talking points at me.
“Saddam didn’t have nuclear weapons!”
“Bush never said he did.”
“That’s not what the media said.”
“Exactly!”
“Saddam was not involved in 9/11!”
“Bush never claimed he was.”
“That’s not what the media said.”
“Exactly!”
“Bush is only after oil!”
“Says who?”
“The media.”
“Exactly!”
“So you’re telling me the media tries to provide me with false information?”
“Pretty much.”
“Why?”
Isn’t that an excellent question? For years I’ve been trying to figure that one out. Just take the last presidential election, for example. Mr. John F. Kerry was portrayed as the better choice for America and the rest of the world. The German media never failed to quote him when he bashed Bush. But they kept silent when Kerry switched to different positions on almost every single issue.
In the German news-show “Tagesschau” an old toothless Iraqi was interviewed by a reporter and he complained that his country had been invaded by Americans who suppressed the Iraqi people and took away their possessions. I don’t doubt for a second that this poor man really believed that, but up to this day I’m still waiting for some pictures of American soldiers being greeted by happy and grateful people in Iraq. And I know for a fact that those are the majority!
I think it all boils down to this: The current Administration in the White House reflects the mindset of the greater part of the American people, which is basically conservative. That explains why FOX NEWS and talk radio are so popular because they have become a refuge for those who despise the liberal agenda. Some shows on FOX NEWS have higher ratings than all other news-channels combined. Not to mention Rush Limbaugh, who has been the number one on radio for almost two decades now. You can argue whether the complete truth can be found there, but it doesn’t change the fact that conservative news broadcasts are the suppliers for conservative people.
The German mindset is the exact opposite. Most people don’t want to hear about morals, God, family values or good and evil. To them it’s all relative. Tolerance and fairness are their highest commandments. (But they refuse to tolerate the simple truth that life is never fair and it can’t be made fair by anyone, especially the government.) The German media is aware of that and they report accordingly. Therefore it shouldn’t surprise anybody to read and watch news stories which focus on the evil doings of Bush and his Administration. It’s demanded.
I used to believe that the mainstream press dictates public opinion. Maybe that was true in the past. We live in an era where we are just one push of the button away from the news we want to watch on TV and one mouse-click away from the news we want to read. We are not dependent on Tagesschau, Dan Rather, Rush Limbaugh or Alan Colmes anymore. The sources are literally unlimited. And every single source is determined to reach as many people as possible. It’s a business. It’s not about the news anymore, it’s about money. A newspaper that reports the truth in an objective way will not survive if nobody buys it. Consequently every newspaper that wants to stay afloat has to cater to their readers.
So when my Little Rib asked me why the media provided her with false information, my answer should have been: Because you asked for it.
Which brings me back to the contradicting mindsets of Americans and Germans. It will always be a problem for the relations between the two countries. In the absence of war it would be much more subtle, but while the worldwide War Against Terrorism is being fought the differences are very obvious. I honestly don’t know if this will ever change. But it certainly can’t hurt to stay optimistic.
P.S. My Little Rib is a big supporter of Bush now. Every time she watches him on TV she jumps up and cheers him loudly. And we both agree that the First Lady is truly a lady!
Glad to hear things are going better. A suggestion if I may, Take your next vacation in Texas. It has everything in one state, from desert flatlands to mountains to forests, to rivers and lakes and beautiful hill country to the ocean coastline.
Take a plane some, drive most, spend as much time as you can get away with because there is so much to do and to see.
Have a look. http://www.touringtexas.com/ and no, I’m not in the tour business or even connected to the State of Texas, except that I have lived here over half my life and was born here.
Tell your wife, she can do some serious shopping in Texas. On second thought, don’t.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Comment by Papa Ray - March 6, 2006 @ 9:08 pm
No, Bush never claimed Saddam had WMD’s. Cheney did. Condi did and even Colin did back when he was still a mouthpiece.
And Bush never proposed the Dubai ports deal. He just supported it once his handlers informed him about the done deal.
It’s all about free trade, that’s why we are selling them to a state-owned company. And it’s all about spreading democracy in the Middle East. After all is “Emirate” not the Arabic for “Constitutional democracy”?
Comment by ralphieboy - March 6, 2006 @ 11:05 pm
An Emirate is an oriental principality. Nothing to do with democracy afaik.
Comment by Loc - March 7, 2006 @ 10:21 am
Loc,
I was being facetious. The point is that “spreading democracy” is often just a cover word for “promoting our economic and political interests” in the Middle East. Some of our staunchest “allies” there have little use for free elections, freedom of speech, women’s rights or (Allah forbid!) freedom of religion.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 7, 2006 @ 10:32 am
Let ralphieboy know that we never sold the ports to the Arabs of the Emirates; they bought them from the Brits.
Comment by Bill Brown - March 7, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
Oh, and you can assure your Little Rib that Bush has already taken care of the power problem. Who do you think told the sun to shine so hot on Las Vegas? All you need to do is to connect it to your electricals with a few solar panels.
Comment by Bill Brown - March 7, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
>”No, Bush never claimed Saddam had WMD’s. Cheney did. Condi did and even Colin did back when he was still a mouthpiece..”
Good point! The Kurds of Halabja all died of old age, of course! Even the infants. And since when is nerve gas considered an WMD anyway? SCORE! You’re the man!
Comment by rc - March 7, 2006 @ 6:37 pm
bb, and Bush has probably never killed a chkicken, he has his butcher do it.
rc, Nobody ever claimed that Saddam *never* had WMD’s, nor do many doubt that he really, really wanted them in his ugly, dictatorial heart.
The point is that UN inspectors determined that they were duly disposed of and that they never posed a threat to US security.
And all those charred folks in Falluja also know that white phosphorous is not considered a chemical weapon if the US Army is simply using it to illuminate targets.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 8, 2006 @ 5:10 am
“The point is that UN inspectors determined that they were duly disposed of and that they never posed a threat to US security.”
Really?! Did they actually determine that? I was under the impression that they wanted more time to go back in and try to complete the inspections so they could make a decision on that matter. In fact, if I’m not mistaken (and I’ve already checked and I’m not), Saddam prevented them from completing the inspections and that was one of the major reasons going to war in the first place.
“And all those charred folks in Falluja also know that white phosphorous is not considered a chemical weapon if the US Army is simply using it to illuminate targets.”
How many ‘charred folks’ resulted form the use of WP at Faluja? It’s an incendiary conventional weapon. How many charred folks resulted from the use of high explosives or flamethrowers at Faluja? It’s a chemical weapon in the exact same sense that every conventional munition is a ‘chemical’ weapon. They all operatate as a result of a chemical reaction (bullets, bombs, flamethrowers and yes WP). It is not now and has never been considered a WMD no matter how many times the Guardian or Kos or Think Progress or you claim otherwise.
Comment by rc - March 8, 2006 @ 6:09 pm
“rc, Nobody ever claimed that Saddam *never* had WMD’s, nor do many doubt that he really, really wanted them in his ugly, dictatorial heart.”
BTW, since you’ve already conceded that, I really don’t even see the point of any of your posts.
Comment by rc - March 8, 2006 @ 6:36 pm
Investor’s Business Daily had a useful article recently on Iraqi WMDs it seems that Saddam had hundreds of hours of secret tapes of high level conversations that fell into the hands of the US after the invasion. The first 12 hours have just been released in translation. The results are shattering. Saddam is heard discussing the developments of his plasma uranium program. This is interesting because no UN inspection ever found any evidence of a plasma uranium program nor did Saddam ever declare such a program to the UN.
We’re left with one of two conclusions:
1. Saddam had WMDs and they remain hidden in Iraq or elsewhere
or
2. Saddam wanted WMDs but got robbed blind and never caught on that he actually was in compliance as all the WMD programs were merely scams to siphon off government money.
If #2 is correct and the US was as fooled as Saddam, is George Bush blameworthy because the psychopath didn’t really have all the evil weapons he thought he did? But if #1 is correct, do you ever think we’ll see appropriate apologies and reforms from all those pillorying this administration today?
Comment by TM Lutas - March 8, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
rc,
When Colin Powell got up to give his famous UN speech (the one that he now refers to as “blot on his record”) I was convinced that Saddam had WMD’s in some form. I figured that they would show up in some form or another after we invaded, at which point the question of whether they posed a threat to the US or its allies to warrant an invasion would become academic.
And when they did not show up at first, Rush came on to assure us it was because American Special Ops had already wrecked the Iraqi command structure, preventing their deployment.
And when they did not show up at all, Paul Wolfowitz admitted that it was just an argument they came up with to gain popular support.
Just like the argument “I’ll just have one beer, honey!” is an argument to gain my wife’s approval for going out and getting falling-down drunk.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 8, 2006 @ 11:02 pm
@ralphieboy
“The point is that UN inspectors determined that they were duly disposed of and that they never posed a threat to US security.”
Saying something like that is an intended lie or ignorance. What about the huge amounts of Nerve Agents that the UN inspector claimed to not be accounted for? And where did ever an UN inspector state something like the second half of your (fantasy) statement.
@Michael Meyn
So much true!!! I sometimes get the feeling here in Germany I am surrounded by brainwashed zombies. Blogs like this are the only thing that make me feel like there are still others out there. But on the other hand you left Germany. What if there is nobody left here?
Comment by garydausz - March 9, 2006 @ 1:03 am
garydausz,
so show me where the the damn WMD’s are hidden and I will stop cease my “ignorant lying”. I have been waiting with baited breath for Bush to pull them out of a hole somewhere, so far the only thing he has found down a hole is Saddam.
And MM, I am an American expatriate (not ex-patriot!) living in Germany and although I am no fan of Bush or his policies, I often find myself amazed at how the Germans have some incredibly clueless opinions about the USofA.
Several of them seem to think that there is no welfare, Social security or medical aid. I try to explain that there are programs, just not an all-embracing social net like they have in Europe.
I tried to explain that John Kerry probably *was* the better candidate…for Europe! Except that Europeans don’t get to vote…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 9, 2006 @ 3:48 am
Well, the question is: If it’s not the WMD nor the oil nor 9/11, what’s the true reason for attacking Iraq ? Silence …
For me, it looks like a classic war crime, which I guess ends in front of a firing squad in the U.S., doesn’t it ? And before you start flaming on me, I am not religious in any way, and I am not supporting the german regime in Berlin !
Comment by Lil' 0sama - March 9, 2006 @ 4:58 am
@ralphieboy
some people are unable to remember what they said. So once again what you said:
“The point is that UN inspectors determined that they were duly disposed of and that they never posed a threat to US security.”
Which is a lie as the UN inspectors never claimed that all WMDs that Sadam was known to have had were “duly disposed of”.
And which UN inspector ever claimed that “they never posed a threat to US security”.
Read the final conclussions of Mr. Blix or otherwise proof your statement.
Btw. If ,as so many smart germans and knowbetters around the world claim, the whole WMD thing was an intended lie by the Bush administration, why wouldn’t they have taken care that there was something found. How easy would it have been to place some “evidence” there to rectify their claim.
For some people that are so easily forgeting things it would be strongly recommended to have a look at the news from before the Iraq invasion and see what the opinions of other secret services around the world had been, especially the german BND or the french and english agencies.
Strange, as I remember none of them doubted that Sadam had WMDs.
Comment by garydausz - March 9, 2006 @ 7:06 am
garyd,
So where are they? Yes, he did have them, and he did use them, so we cannot give him the benefit of the doubt, but I still think that Bush would have hung them out for all the world to see and admire.
I understand that WMD’S are an article of faith to supporters of the invasion of Iraq; one that you are still clinging to because all the other justifications have blown up in our faces.
Spreading democracy? We are helping spread chaos and Islamism in a country that was admittedly undemocratic, but stable and secular.
Closing Saddam’s torture chambers? To reopen them under new management.
Stopping Al-Qaeda? There was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq until they stepped into the power vacuum that we created.
We all believe the “Big Lies” that support our viewpoints. I still believe the “Big Lie” that Saddam posed no direct threat to the USA and that the invasion was unjustified . You believe the “Big Lie” that he was enough of a threat.
The fun thing about these Big Lies is that they can, in the end, be neither refuted or confirmed.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 9, 2006 @ 8:15 am
Back to the mindset thing: from the discussions I have had here, it seems to boil down to a difference in philosophy: Americans see themselves as independent individuals. We enter into contracts & agreements out of our own sense of self-interest, and the rold of government is to assure us the broadest possible range of actions in order to realize them.
Europeans seem to think that we act primarily out of necessity and compulsion: we are forced to enter into agreements in order to work, to feed ourselves and afford a place to live. Therefore it is the purpose of government to protect people from being exploited.
The upshot is that there are millions of Americans being exploited in jobs that keep them at or below the poverty level, whereas millions of Europeans are protected from exploitation in that they have no employer to exploit them in the first place.
Choose your poison.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 9, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
“And when they did not show up at all, Paul Wolfowitz admitted that it was just an argument they came up with to gain popular support.”
You just make this stuff up, don’t you? Otherwise, post the quote and link the source.
“Just like the argument “I’ll just have one beer, honey!” is an argument to gain my wife’s approval for going out and getting falling-down drunk.”
As analogies go, I’ll let that one speak for itself.
“I tried to explain that John Kerry probably *was* the better candidate…for Europe! Except that Europeans don’t get to vote…”
What a shame! How unfair! Well, at least you tried, you Patriot you! Damn, when is the USA going to get with the program and allow Europeans to vote!
“When Colin Powell got up to give his famous UN speech (the one that he now refers to as “blot on his record”) I was convinced that Saddam had WMD’s in some form. I figured that they would show up in some form or another after we invaded, at which point the question of whether they posed a threat to the US or its allies to warrant an invasion would become academic.”
Yes! The whole case was blown to hell when in turned out that Saddam didn’t provide us with the location of the chemical WMD that THE ENTIRE FREAKING WORLD knows he used at Halabja! Surely this guy wouldn’t be harboring an NCB program! Good thing the level headed UN was about to lift sanctions (and get their payday for their help in the ‘Oil for Food’ program).
Look ralphieboy, at this point, you’re just a troll. You’ve made ZERO factual points (lack of citation or logic, indicative) and everthing you’ve said sounds like a talking point of the Democratic Underground, Indymedia, Daily Kos or Der Speigel.
“The upshot is that there are millions of Americans being exploited in jobs that keep them at or below the poverty level, whereas millions of Europeans are protected from exploitation in that they have no employer to exploit them in the first place.”
Let’s just be honest here, shall we, ralphieboy. You are now in the place where you belong. You should stay there. It’s warm and soft and grey. Don’t pretend you care about the USA and we won’t pretend we care about you.
Comment by rc - March 9, 2006 @ 7:39 pm
Whew! Michael, you certainly chose the right bait for comments this time!
Comment by Bill Brown - March 9, 2006 @ 9:16 pm
garydausz:
“Saying something like that is an intended lie or ignorance. What about the huge amounts of Nerve Agents that the UN inspector claimed to not be accounted for? And where did ever an UN inspector state something like the second half of your (fantasy) statement.”
Right on, brother. Fantasy is about the best characterization you could make of ralphieboy’s claim!
BTW, Michael, I agree with Gary! This blog helps my sanity too! And, yes, you are funny as hell! And I don’t even speak German!
Comment by rc - March 9, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
“Whew! Michael, you certainly chose the right bait for comments this time!”
Yep. “Baiting trolls, the national pastime since 1999!”
Comment by rc - March 9, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
gardyd,
now that I’ve had a cuppa coffe and don’t have a two-year-old crawling up ma leg, let me clarify: I missed out on a comma - that is my own personal assessment that Saddam posed no threat to the USA, not the UN’s.
And when the UN inspectors falied to turn up any evidence of WMD’s, I was at first skeptical (after all, you red-staters know that they are all fuzzyheaded terrorist sympathizers).
But when the US Army and Intlligence Services failed to produce any viable proof, the extent of the Big Lie became clear.
You may continue to believe if you want. After all, without faith, we are nothing…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 9, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
“Spreading democracy? We are helping spread chaos and Islamism in a country that was admittedly undemocratic, but stable and secular.”
Way to confuse cause and effect, dude. Chaos and (militant)Islamisism were there (and documented) well before we were. Note: I make a distinction between islimasism and militant islimasism. You capitalized the former, but failed to even acknowlege the later. No doubt, you equate the two. They are different.
OK, I’ll accept the charge of chaos, since democracy is a form of chaos. Of course, anything that is active and engaged is chaotic, but I suspect, from you’re previous posts, that you didn’t mean it in that way. ‘Stability’, in the intellectually dishonest form you try to slip by here, is actually death. Because we all know that anything dead is about as stable as you can get. All hail the stability!
And, of course, 911 was an abberation in you’re beloved ’stable world’ caused by our invasion of Iraq..oh wait! Ok, back up, just a step to you’re left…and let’s do the time warp again!
Comment by rc - March 9, 2006 @ 10:13 pm
@ralphieboy
“Closing Saddam’s torture chambers? To reopen them under new management.”
You may want to keep telling this lie until everyone thinks it is the truth….oh……that is what the Nazi did, isn’t it?
Saddam’s torture chambers included torturing children in front of their parents, putting people in shedders feet first to prolong their pain, eyes and hands being removed. And, none of the people who did these things were punished.
The idiots who mistreated prisoners in Abu Ghraib did not kill anyone. They did not remove hands or eyes. They were stupid and wrong and were put on trial! And, they are now serving hard time.
More to the point, little Ralphie, do you ever speak up about what is going on in the Sudan? How about China….or North Korea……or Cuba. Do you care about the rape that is going on in the UN peacekeeping missions? What about the make up of the UN Human Rights Commission? Do you even know who is on the Human Rights Commission?
Or, if you had a choice, would you rather be in a jail in China, Iraq (before 2003), North Korea, Cuba, Syria, …..and the list goes on….or in a jail run by the US military?
Comment by jlwb - March 9, 2006 @ 10:41 pm
All we have accomplished is to drive out one evil with another. We used to have a tin-horn dictator who ran a secular state that was at least free of sectarian strife. We have replaced it with a state run by democratically elected Islamists that is losing people by the busload every day to suicide bombers.
We have replaced a state that had no ties to Al-Qaeda to a state where they operate with impunity. Is this how we conduct a War on Terrorism?
Comment by ralphieboy - March 9, 2006 @ 11:32 pm
@ralphieboy
you don’t answer questions.
you do repeat the liberal talking points
and most of what you say is wrong
Comment by jlwb - March 9, 2006 @ 11:47 pm
@ralphieboy
Your way of argumenting reflects the typical way a discussion works here in Germany (you either learned fast or picked the reight place to live). A false “fact”, which is of course strongly in your favour, is presented. Once this “fact” is proven incorrect you simply turn to another so called “fact”.
Once they run out of facts they will end the discussion with “you americans simply don’t understand”
“We are helping spread chaos and Islamism in a country that was admittedly undemocratic, but stable and secular.”
Please tell me why the US is “helping” to spread Chaos and Islamism. The people who are “helping” to do that are fighting on the other side. The so called “freedom fighters” seem to be more interested to free their fellow countryman from their lives than to free them of occupation.
Btw, more people were killed in the “stable” Sadam area than have been killed so far, and also probably for a long time into the future, due to the effects of the invasion.
The rest of your comparisons are too ignorant to be commented.
The difference between you and me is that I would never state things as facts that I wouldn’t be able to prove. I prefer to use the “I think”, “I believe” and “In my point of view” form when saying things. An art many people, especially in europe, seem to have forgotten.
Comment by garydausz - March 10, 2006 @ 2:17 am
Once again, Saddam had no proven links to Al-Qaeda. Now they are operating in Iraq, and there is evidence that they are receiving support from Iran in spreading militant islamism (I’ll use small letters for your sake), which was impossible before we created a power vaccum there.
Dick Cheney got up in public to make speeches spreading facts that he could not prove (”We have incontrovertible evidence that Saddam possesses WMD’s”) and probably knew were lies when he uttered them.
And the people who sent Colin Powell to spread misinformation about Iraqi WMD’s also probably knew they were selling us a load of horses***, too, but Colin was a good soldier and followed orders.
And yes, if you just want to count bodies, then Iraq is still a somewhat less lethal place per capita than it was before we invaded it. I would like to see signs that it is improving, but I fear that it could well turn out to be just as lethal as it was under Saddam.
The latest good news is that the US is spending $100 million to build new prisons. They’ll need them. Saddam never built enough under his regime.
And I still do not think it was worth the billions of dollars and thousands of American lives that we have spent on it, or will have to spend on it before things settle down.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 10, 2006 @ 2:49 am
@ralphieboy
“Once again, Saddam had no proven links to Al-Qaeda”
Another lie Ralphie! Look for example (and there are many) here:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
Just repeating something over and over again doesn’t make it true.
It has still not been proven (unless you can, off course) that the accusations of the Bush Administration about WMDs in Iraq has been a deliberate lie.
I for my part do not know if there had been anymore WMDs in Iraq. But I do know that if I had been the president at that time and had received the informations that he got from all kind of sources I and looking at the way that Saddam tried over and over again to fool the UN Inspectors (which is a fact) would have also strongly assumed that he possesed or was manufacturing WMDs.
In my opinion this has been off course not the only reason for the invasion.
If is or isn’t worth the billions of Dollars and the 2000 so far killed american soldiers will be only judgeable by history in some 10 to 20 years.
A lot of people that are so criticial about the war shold also thing about the what-ifs that could have happened if the US wouldn’t have taken this step.
Comment by garydausz - March 10, 2006 @ 4:09 am
I have also read articles purporting links to Al-Qaeda. I have also read reports of Bin Laden himself declaring Saddam an enemy because of his secularist views. But as far as I know from his end, there was no organization known as “Al-Qaeda Mespopotamia” before the US invasion.
Note that I took care to state that Cheney was “probably” lying about WMDs. He might just have been decieved by his own preconceived notions. (or he might have just been stumbling drunk at the time.)
And I was also convinced that Saddam had some form of WMDs. The question of whether they posed enough of a threat to the US to warrant an invasion is another question. I am still waiting for some evidence of their existence. If they turn up in any verifiable form, I promise to shut up.
But the fun thing is that the absence of evidence on WMDs proves nothing definitive either way, just like the absence of Bush’s Air National Guard records does not prove that he was or was not AWOL in Alabama. And in the absence of a blood test, we do not know if Dick Cheney “only had one beer” before he shot his colleague in the chest with a shotgun.
And I wonder what the death toll and the bill for the invasion of Iraq will look like in 20 years.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 10, 2006 @ 4:24 am
Talk about mindsets, the Germans were shocked to hear their vice Chancellor Franz Müntefering, announce that the German state pension system would no longer be able to support retirees as a sole source of income, and that people had better start saving for their own retirement.
The Bild-Zeitung carried a banner headline threatening to sue Germany’s politicians for their promises that “pensions are safe”. They’re safe as such, but the social net has just widened its mesh a bit more, it is no longer a comfy hammock.
Welcome to the real world, Germany.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 10, 2006 @ 9:13 am
So comrade Red Muntehering has been doing a little math? Ya gotta love it when the statist nobility comes to the revelation that one cannot consume that wich is not being produced. Duhhh. So after Hans and Helga-average were taxed up the wahzoo to pay for their socialist retirements, Herr Muntefering is now telling them they’re going to the glue factory unless they start hording Notgeld. Well as the old peasant saying went “they take what is ours by the bushel and give it back to us by the handfull”. The more things change, the more they stay the same. I lament that I did not inherit efficiency from my German ancestry, however I thank God I did not inherit the German tendency to be told to stand in line, what to do, how to do it AND NOT ASK QUESTIONS!
Comment by Del Hoeft - March 11, 2006 @ 10:48 am
Problem is that Hans and Helga weren’t turning out enough children to keep the system solvent. Which was probably because Helga had to go to work to pay the tax bill and didn’t have the time to stay at home and raise the family the way she was expected.
In any case, Hans and Helga were being asked to pay deductions to pay for a BMW among social systems and have now been informed that they can expect to receive a Skoda…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 12, 2006 @ 9:42 am
Well, that “Hans and Helga” were not making enough children became obvious already 30 years ago and for 30 years there had been no indication that this would change. The problem here in Germany is that everybody is so afraid to do something wrong that they rather don’t do anything at all. This reflects itself as well in german foreign policy. “Lets keep things as they are, they could be worse”. This and the desire not to piss anyone off so exoprts are not endangered are Germanys only foreign policy considerations.
Comment by garydausz - March 13, 2006 @ 1:22 am
The other way to make up for Hans and Helga’s lack of children is to invite foreigners to come over and breed. The trick with that approach is that they have to be integrated enough to get jobs and start contributing to the pension insurance system.
“Avoid Mistakes” is one of the first rules that schoolchildren learn. I teach English in Germany, and find that most students attempt to avoid mistakes in their English by simply not saying anything at all…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 13, 2006 @ 3:32 am
“I teach English in Germany, and find that most students attempt to avoid mistakes in their English by simply not saying anything at all…”
Good God! That’s terrifying. I doubt you are teaching the English language so much as teaching “…and here are the 10,000 ways to say ‘America Sux!’ in English…”
Comment by rc - March 13, 2006 @ 6:07 pm
@ Ralphieboy, Garydausz, I think you gents are on to something Freudian here. Could it be that Germany is suffering mass ‘Performance Anxiety’ brought on by an earlier trauma? An acute Childhood fear of failure leading to a banal self destructive adulthood. Yehhhz, I zee.
As for the English language? as the comedian said “bomb, tomb and comb do n’t rhyme”. If I understood the gooderest English there wuz would Chomsky still be as dull as dirt? (admitedly that’s off topic but I’m having a Single Malt moment).
Comment by Del Hoeft - March 13, 2006 @ 10:29 pm
rc,
I love it when you guys get personal, I can almost hear a grumbling noise coming from under a bridge…
Actually, I use a lot of Simpsons episodes as teaching materials, taking time to explain the puns, gags and cultural references. Besides, they’re products of the German education system, their opinions about America have already been fixed in their minds.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 13, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
Del,
A friend of mine tells of a key childhood trauma related to learing English: she approached her teacher about translating the lyrics of “Yesterday” by the Beatles as an extra-credit project.
The teacher just looked down his glasses and stated, “The correct Oxford pronounciation is yester-DEE”.
She slunk away, and resolved never to actively speak English again. (She can read and understand it just fine.)
At her birthday party, I once got up and sang “Yester-dee/all my troubles were so far a-wee…”
Comment by ralphieboy - March 13, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
@Del
Well, there could be something to this theory. This anxiety that you described doesn’t only manifest itself in school here it continues well into studying, apprenticeship and later even into the worklife.
I do remember this kind of behaviour that ralphieboy describes when I went to school in Germany. I always had been a lousy french student when it came to grades but as soon as there were some french exchange students (especially female ones) in school, I wound up being the one of the few who could/would talk to them. All the 1 (A) graders who should have done much better didn’t talk at all with them and when they tried simply sucked.
Comment by garydausz - March 14, 2006 @ 1:25 am
Kids are tracked here at a very early age: by the fifth grade they are sorted into a Gymnasium, where they can go on to a university or higher education, a Realschule, where they can go study a lower-level profession or a Haputschule, which they will leave after 10 years to go study a trade.
The UN recently criticzed the German system for its inflexibility: it leads to children from the lower social classes (e.g. immigrants) reaching a lower level education thatn children from the middle classes.
The American system might have its weaknesses, but one of its strengths is that even children from humble social origins can receive a good education if they work hard.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 14, 2006 @ 3:53 am
“Sorted into a gymnasium”? I do n’t mean to pile-on here but that sounds, well…so German. “Not Slitherin, not Slitherin”. This sorting continued into the New World. A family story of a certain town in the German ancestral homeland of Wisconsin. The Swedish and German bluebloods graced one bank of the river wilst the “mixed race” German-Hungarian-Polish mutts squatted the other bank.
@ Garydausz. “Great minds think alike”, from your french class expirience I’d say you understood the “prime Directive” (what-would-Kirk-do?), construct a primitive cannon, kill the big lizard-man, get the girl. For me the most favorable babes to dudes ratio was in square-dancing class. ‘clap right, clap left, ya move to the right and ya get a new girl right now’. And they’ve been making a fool of me ever since.
Comment by Del Hoeft - March 14, 2006 @ 9:24 am
Germany had one of the most advanced and successful school systems in the world back at the end of the XIX century, it has been slow to adapt to the modern age.
They were very good at turning out graduates who were ready to enter a profession, start work with one company doing one thing for the rest of their lives, and then retiring on their state pensions.
The world has been evolving since, and it is a minority who remain with one company, one job or even one profession for their entire lives. The German school system and society in general is just coming to recognize the Brave New World.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 14, 2006 @ 10:20 am
But Del, don’t let me just criticize German schools. In most cases, you can send your kids to a public school here and expect them to learn something other than how to fight, fornicate and take drugs.
And if the wife and I lived in the US or UK, we’d be paying out the wazoo to send our kids to private schools or to live in an expensive neighborhood with good public education.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 14, 2006 @ 10:41 am
@ralphieboy
Without learning how to take drugs and how to fight? I wouldn’t be too sure about that. Your kid is most usually “protected” if it goes to Gymnasium and even Realschule is not too bad most of the time but if it has to go to Hauptschule and especially one in a bigger city you should think about arming it or giving it enough money so it can bribe its way out of trouble. I friend of mine is teacher in a Hauptschule and what she tells me from there is making it clear to me that you definetely have to watch out in Germany in which school you send your kids.
I believe you that germany had an excellent school system in the 19th century compared to other countries. But there is the problem, they didn’t change it much afterwards due to German mindset “its been working all the time, so why shouldn’t it keep on working”. This and the tendency that germany always has to take its own way as nothing, which seems to be working good anywhere else would be ok for germany, is dooming this country. They will only react here when the shit has already hit the fan, rather than trying to do something that might evade this.
Comment by garydausz - March 15, 2006 @ 7:32 am
hairy gary,
I said “in most cases”…and yes, the Hauptschule has become Germany’s social dumping ground for immigrant children who lack the language and cultural skills they need to be able to display in the first four years of school in order to be selected for a Gymnasium.
I remember the enormous discussion that ensued when they started sending children to school in the afternoons, as it is done in most countries in the world. To read the editorials & letters to the editor in the newspapers
here, you would think that it was a unique, radical experiment being proposed.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 15, 2006 @ 8:09 am
“rc,
I love it when you guys get personal, I can almost hear a grumbling noise coming from under a bridge…”
>”hairy gary,
I said “in most cases”…and yes, the Hauptschule has become”
Oh Irony! Thy name is ralphieboy!
You don’t get it do you?
Comment by rc - March 15, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
ralphieboy,
“I love it when you guys get personal, I can almost hear a grumbling noise coming from under a bridge…”
BTW, it’s not personal attack if you entered into the discussion personal information that had NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand. We now know that you are a parent and an english language teacher in Germany: all of which has zero to do with the discussion at hand. You don’t engage in the debate, simply shift positions when you get called on some of the BS you spout, and them claim victim status when you spew personal information and I comment on it. But, that’s a well established pattern with you, isn’t it….
Comment by rc - March 15, 2006 @ 6:59 pm
rc,
it’s good to get things off your chest. They must be bothering you deeply. Do you feel better?
I got little kids playing with the damn server boxes as I write half of this, or I am writing it at 6am while they still sleep (and the coffee is still brewing). So I excuse the occasional gaps in logic and weakness of arguments.
Are we really here to try and change people’s opinions and or enlighten their “Weltanschauung”? I thought we did it because we enjoy babbling and like the site and our gracious hosts (top o’ the mornin’ to ya, there!)
Comment by ralphieboy - March 15, 2006 @ 9:11 pm
Yeah, it’s called blog-babble
Comment by Michael Meyn - March 16, 2006 @ 5:05 am
I’m well aware that youse guys are gonna support Bush and his war come hell or high water. I am going to oppose it come hell or high water.
I used to live & work in Russia, where people really enjoy a good table-thumping political argument. I came away from a few discussions wondering if the folks were ever going to talk to me again, but we remained best of friends.
My advice to all involved is: don’t let politics get in the way of having a good time!
Comment by ralphieboy - March 16, 2006 @ 10:27 am
@Ralphieboy
Its not a question of supporting Bush or supporting “his”(why his? as long as i remember there were others involved as well) war. Its a question of supporting the truth (At least in my case). It simply pisses me off to hear this half truthes or even direct lies constantly circulated here in germany. That they used to be spread by individuals is bad but what makes it unbearable is that it has become a tendency now to even hear them here in the media. Some stuff told here on TV is so absolutely wrong that you cannot refrain from thinking it is actualy intentional.
BTW what makes me “hairy” ralphiboy? That I am not having the same opinion as you? That I am saying you are lying when you actually do?
You have to be really glad you are a teacher, it must feel good to give a pupil a bad grade if he doesn’t agree with your opinion.
Comment by garydausz - March 19, 2006 @ 9:21 am
@gary
Bush is commander-in-chief, that makes him responsible for the decisions made under his administration. At first I tried to believe that although the war was a mistake, at least it was a case of Bush erring on the side of security and freedom.
But when the WMD’s failed to materialize, when we saw photos of the US-run torture rooms, read about the mass graves (I mean the ones that have come about since the fall of Saddam) and the blatant profiteering on the part of companies like Halliburton, I came to realize the extent to which Bush and his supporters have launched their share of lies and half-truths.
And gary, it *is* possible to get your point across without making personal digs, but if it makes you feel better doing so, then don’t stop on my account. Let’s not let politics get in the way of having a good time…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 19, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
“So I excuse the occasional gaps in logic and weakness of arguments.”
How gracious of you to forgive yourself like that. Self-healing is a beautiful thing.
“Are we really here to try and change people’s opinions and or enlighten their “Weltanschauung”?”
Thank you Herr Sensei ralphiboy! I have received your wisdom. Now, please apply that question to yourself and ask yourself this: I went to a conservative blog and posted my leftist opinions…were they enlightened or did I start a flame war?
“I’m well aware that youse guys are gonna support Bush and his war come hell or high water. I am going to oppose it come hell or high water.”
I dunno, whose “Weltanschauung” do you suppose you are enlightening here? I suspect it’s your own. Anybody can come to any blog and spew patently false claims and then say they are simply enlightening the village idiots. Of course, if the ‘villiage idots’ consistently present logical and factually based arguments that indicate that Weltanschauung-boy is full of crap, and then he claims that he’s only here because he enjoys a good discusion of the issues, but never deals with the issues about his arguments that were raised, then then lower life forms here presiding might decide that his Weltanschauung-ness is full of crap all the same. BTW, keep responding (as long as our hosts permit it), I love this stuff.
Comment by rc - March 20, 2006 @ 9:08 pm
“And gary, it *is* possible to get your point across without making personal digs, but if it makes you feel better doing so, then don’t stop on my account. Let’s not let politics get in the way of having a good time…”
Darn, I hate when people just roll over like that and pretend that they aren’t part of the problem when they first go out of their way to inform you that they are!
“Oh, it’s a personal attack if I mentioned that I *hate* Bush and teach school in an important country that the world needs to be engaged in the war on terrorism. You must feel better about yourself having attacked me! You can’t comment on that! That’s off limits! It’s PERSONAL and you should feel bad about yourself for hiring private investigators to look into my personal life and discuss issues that ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! That has nothing to do with the problems with the single-sideness of the German media and German public opinion!”
Well, speaking of weak arguments….
Comment by rc - March 20, 2006 @ 9:37 pm
And, one more thing:
““And gary, it *is* possible to get your point across without making personal digs.”
What personal dig did garydausz make? That he disagreed with you about the veracity of your ‘factual’ information? Or that he called you on the personal ‘hairy’ thing you decided to (completely unprovoked) throw in his direction? If you have an issue with that entire ‘personal dig’ thing, then it would most correctly be directed at me, not gary. But I forget. You aren’t here to make any valid points, it’s just all for laughs. Psyche! You were just having us on the whole time. No serious points to be made here (and you made none), let’s just have fun!
Comment by rc - March 20, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
@rc,
you made your point. I will go bug some other righteous conservatives at another site. Have fun and thanks for all the fish heads.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 20, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
@Ralphieboy
Nooooooo, don’t gooooooooooo! You can’t leave us alone here!
Hello? HELLOO??(Big echo)
Well, thats a littlebit lousy Ralphiboy. You came, you claimed some “facts”, you were proven wrong, you claimed the same “facts” again and then left.
Very convincing. What disturbs me most about this is that you claim to be a teacher. But on the other hand, you are a teacher in Germany. That fits!!!
You found the right place to live Ralphie and you will find lots and lots of likeminded where you are. But just hope that you never disagree in earnest about something they say about the USA, then you will see some very ugly faces. Good luck!
Comment by garydausz - March 23, 2006 @ 6:43 am
We can argue about facts and ideas all day, even whien it gets a bit nasty. When it gets personal I see no need to continue. Sorry if you were offended by being called “hairy”, but hey, we’re both mammals, aren’t we?
Comment by ralphieboy - March 23, 2006 @ 9:44 am
@ralphieboy
There is no need to argue about ideas (I would rather call them opinions) and facts.
If you would have said “I think..” or “In my opinion…” than I would have never called you a lier. Only if someone claims thinks “are” like that or that without a proof than it is a lie. Whatever you believe is up to you but then you should make it clear that these are believes.
I am not offended about being called “hairy” because I am. There are in fact hairs at a lot of places all over my body but I don’t think that was what you ment.
Comment by garydausz - March 24, 2006 @ 12:59 am
garyd,
I did make one grevious error in stating that the UN weapons inspectors reported the WMD’s to be duly destroyed. I don’t mind having somebody, even a conservative, tell me that my facts are f**ked. But please leave out the personal digs.
I was not at first very convinced by the quality of the UN inspectors’ work, but when the damn things never did turn up, even after the US Army and Intelligence services obviously invested a lot of resources into finding them, it became clear that they were no longer any threat to the US or its allies.
So do accept my apologies for not being more clear or concise. I offered them to rc, but he declined to accept them. It’s okay, I’m sure that Jesus will forgive me - just as soon as I accept him as my personal savior and accept Bush’s rationale for invading Iraq. I hear that faith can move mountains.
Or is it Muhammed who is in charge of moving mountains? Gotta go check my facts…
Comment by ralphieboy - March 26, 2006 @ 1:46 am
“So do accept my apologies for not being more clear or concise. I offered them to rc, but he declined to accept them.”
I really, really hate to nitpick and tell you this (and I know this may be getting embarassing for you by now), but I re-read the entire thread again, and I didn’t see where you offered me an ‘appology’ or did anything even remotely like it. Could you post the quote please? In fact, whenever I made a rebuttal to your claims, all I saw you do was change the subject.
Anyway, since I posted this reply, we’ll see if you “will go bug some other righteous conservatives at another site.” Perhaps, though, you will shed more tears here, which would be more fun, of course…
Comment by rc - March 28, 2006 @ 8:19 pm
“It’s okay, I’m sure that Jesus will forgive me - just as soon as I accept him as my personal savior and accept Bush’s rationale for invading Iraq. I hear that faith can move mountains….Or is it Muhammed who is in charge of moving mountains? Gotta go check my facts…”
That was a really cute trick ralphieboy. Those dumb red-state Christians will fall for that bait every time, won’t they?
You can’t help but betray yourself and your flawed worldview everytime. Did you ever think (NO!) that you’re not necessarily dealing with a Christian here? You can do the whole ‘Mohammed = Jesus = Bush = Satan’ thing all day long and it won’t phase me a bit.
“I always consider myself a winner by knockout whenever someone distorts my point to something ridiculous and then argues against the ridiculous thing. That seems like an acknowledgement that my real point is unassailable. Why else would someone need to invent a whole new point to argue against?
Knockout!”
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2005/12/index.html
Comment by rc - March 28, 2006 @ 9:00 pm
rc,
you’re right, I said “excuse me” and not “I offer my humble apologies”. And this is not a place where people hang out and have a friendly argument, it is a boxing ring. So I guess I should thank you for the gut-punches.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 28, 2006 @ 9:27 pm
>you’re right, I said “excuse me”
Well, ignoring, for a moment, the fact that that’s not an apology, where did you even say that? My point is, you are still making stuff up, even in a thread where it can be obviously checked! And you just did it again, just now!
Man, this has got to be one of the few ‘boxing-rings’ where the gut keeps trying to punch the fist…
Comment by rc - March 28, 2006 @ 9:53 pm
I guess I’m going all soft here, but seriously! The truth is, you made some very calumnous accusations early on in this thread, with no factual basis and tried to use numerous dubious techniques in dodging the rebuttals then presented:
1) You threw out even more outrageous claims when confronted on your original statements with facts.
2) You changed the subject as soon as you realized you had been called out on the factual inaccuracies you presented.
3) You then presented, as yet another change of subject, information of a personal nature that looked like you were making an emotional appeal for sympathy instead of a reasoned factual point.
4) You then made statements about apologies you claimed to have rendered (again, in a obviously passive-aggressive emotional plea of victimhood) that you in fact never made in a medium that can be instantly checked.
All of these things, while certainly ‘argumentative’, had nothing ‘friendly’ about them. You have been transparently dishonest and incompetently manipulative throughout this entire discussion.
That approach will win few friends and little sympathy from anybody anywhere.
Comment by rc - March 28, 2006 @ 10:33 pm
rc,
you are a true Evander Holyfield of the blogosphere! You got me on points and now I have a cut above my right eye…
But at least I know what kind of folks I am dealing with here. If my facts are fucked or my logic is inconsistent, then call me on it. When it comes down to personal digs, then I can only shake my head and wonder…and what I wonder I will keep to myself because i don’t see the point of spewing it here.
Comment by ralphieboy - March 29, 2006 @ 12:13 am
@rc
I am starting to believe he (ralphieboy) is schizophrenic.
Comment by garydausz - March 29, 2006 @ 5:25 am
…and paranoid (look, they’re ganging up on me!)
One of the things I like about this site is that it is humorous, satirical and light, even if it is a bit conservative. I did try and step back a few times and ask if we had to be so personal or serious about the the ongling debate.
I got my answer. In spades.
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