Quote of the Day
Why do only the Western Human Right’s Organizations protest again? Where is the outrage of the “arab street”, which otherwise is demonstrating on the basis of mere rumors over the abuse of a single copy of the Koran? Slowly I’m starting to believe there is no difference between “moderate” Muslims and islamic extremists. The whole ideology of Islam is the problem.
(Comment about the Wadinet report “Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists“. Emphasis by me.)
Where is the world’s outrage that was so prominent in the Tookie Williams execution?
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 7:22 am
Right on Claudia!
Comment by Balberith - January 15, 2006 @ 7:24 am
Homosexuals are an abomination unto God, women are to be suberservient to their men and the sons of Ham (negroes) were born to serve. It’s all right there in the Bible, black on white. Don’t forget that one should not suffer a witch to live.
Is there a difference between “moderate” and “conservative” Christians?
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 8:28 am
Its not been proven (yet) that I’m a witch!
What’s your point ralphmeister in pointing out the absurdities of the Bible? One need not a god(s) to act with malice…I’m godless and can do that on my own.
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 9:52 am
The point is that fundamentalism and extremism exist and operate independent of the prevailing religion in their part of the world.
Just don’t turn me into a newt…
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 10:00 am
Heh lol If I had powers, I would give Fubar a brain and a personality to go with it. It’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. I would feel guilty only…I’m not that generous.
I do agree with you on extremism and fundamentalism. I’m guilty of both, only I don’t do it under the guise of a god.
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 10:09 am
Hey raphieboy,
i see you discovered the secret of RELATIVISM.
Now go and and bring me one example where a homosexual person has been killed because of the bible in the past, lets say 10 years. Tell me furthermore, which of the big christian churches today openly proclaims “women are to be suberservient to their men and the sons of Ham (negroes) were born to serve”.
I’m holding my breath….
Comment by Don Loc - January 15, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
O yes, raphieboy, I killed two nasty witches yesterday. The day before I bought a black guy at the “Christian Slavery Market” opposite the main station, and at this very moment, my wife is on her knees licking my toes. Last sunday we had a stoning of homosexuals in our church. And tomorrow, the Baptists next-door will chop off the hands of some captured infidels and behead three Muslims. This will be great fun!
All in all, we’re just ordinary Christians.
Comment by J. Krafzik - January 15, 2006 @ 7:09 pm
And I thought you were just a great writer, Juergen. But you seem to actually “walk the talk”. Good for you, my friend!
Comment by M. Meyn - January 15, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
JK,
we have to go back more than ten years, but it was not that long ago that the good Christian folks of Alabama and Mississippi had “Jim Crow” laws that banished the sons of Ham to the role of the servant in society.
And it was not that much longer before that when the good Christian folks of Germany tolerated and actively participated in the murder of Jews and homosexuals.
I agree with you that a lot of Islamic nations are religiously and socially backwards - that is my main reason for disengaging with them economically and politically - but I stop short at a blanket condemnation of Isam.
I think that fundamentalism and reactionism can exist in any society, independent of the prevailing religion there.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 10:52 pm
I double-dog-dare any man, to try telling a western Christian woman to walk behind him or to be subservient to him. There is a vast difference in Muslim women and Christian women…Christian women talk back and aim low. (which I support whole heartedly)
There is also a vast difference in loving your husband and wanting to take care of him and being subservient to him.
As far as homosexuals and Christian’s: There is a horrific group called GodHatesFags who hate-monger (I believe) under the guise of the Christian deity. Of all the Christian’s I’ve spoken with, they equally find this group horrific.
Comment by Claudia - January 16, 2006 @ 12:48 am
Until the 1974 the German Constitution stated that it was the job of the woman to raise the children and run the household. It was also law until 1959 that the husband’s decision was final and binding on all matters affecting the family.
And the GHF folks are just referring to Leviticus 18:22, which states that homosexuals are an abomination unto the Lord. Praise the lord and pass the KY jelly…
Once again, it is not the religion itself, it is the fundamentalist reactionaries that make it ugly.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 16, 2006 @ 3:05 am
Fair enough, but the fundamentalist reactionaries are
a) Marginal compared to fundamentalist reactionaries in islam
b) opposed by every normal christian. Now please tell me where were the massive demonstrations in the islamic world after 9/11 or after the recent hanging of an 18-year-old girl in iran who accidently killed one of the three men who wanted to rape her ( http://www.wadinet.de/news/iraq/newsarticle.php?id=1738 )
You went to walk on the road of relativism but i tell you… it’s slippery so be careful
Comment by Don Loc - January 16, 2006 @ 4:58 am
addendum:
Fair enough from my upper comment is to be deleted. I had a wrong association with that term
Comment by Don Loc - January 16, 2006 @ 5:01 am
DL,
Relative is as relative does. It was not that long ago that fundamentalism had the upper hand in Christianity. I find it a bit arrogant to boast about the fact that we have made some advances in recent decades.
But while we’re at it, when it comes to keeping women subservient, how about the largest Christian faith in the World? I will take the Catholc Church seriously when the college of Cardinals and Cardinelles convenes to elect the next Pope/Popess.
And it is the West that has done much to promote frundamentalism in Islamic countries. Our dear “allies” in Saudi Arabia use the money they earn from selling oil to us to fund Wahabism.
I have already cited the example of the damage that the USA did to any form of moderate Islam in Iran by installing the Shah.
Once again, I agree that a lot of Islamic countries are really backwards, socially and politically. But I disagree with a blanket condemnation of Islam, which is the message behind the “Quote of the Day”. My comments on Christian fundamentalists were just an attempt to highlight that.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 16, 2006 @ 7:15 am
If you take a deep look at the hardline Islamists you’ll see they live in the middle ages, be it the time count, the historical development, the current ethical principles. Just as Christians did some few hundred years ago, no better. The Western Human Right’s Organizations never stopped protesting against these, maybe they don’t mention it too often in your American propaganda magazines.
Claudia, haha, is that all you ignorant bitch have got so say!?
You’re weakening, I just returned from university, but you seem to be the personalized wisdom, hooray.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 16, 2006 @ 9:21 am
Please keep it civil, folks. If you want to trade insults, get each other’s prive atddresses and do it there.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 16, 2006 @ 9:56 am
Ok, Ralphie.
I agree with you, fundamentalism has to be dealt with independently of the religion it misuses. Else we end up accusing the wrong people of something they hadn’t done.
Don Loc,
Christianity has developed, but it isn’t really worse or better from the Islam base per se. Take the KKK, the Nazis, Bush’s bombing “in the name of god”, they all did it with or for the Christian god just a few years ago. So at least they proclaimed.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 16, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
Amazing how such an ‘ignorant bitch’ can get a “tough and intellectual” man’s panties in a wad. Oh my!
I would think you’d thank me Fubar, for making it possible for you to get at least some kind-of action in your panties.
Comment by Claudia - January 16, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
“Why do only the Western Human Right’s Organizations protest again? Where is the outrage of the “Arab street” I question the double standard as well.
I would like all of you to know, in Europe, I blame much of the double standards on the European press. I say that because on 9/11 my son was stationed in Germany. Germans came to the fence around the base, in tears, and put flowers in the fence and candles on the ground. Soon, the fence was full of flowers. My phone rang on 9/11. Calls came from Europe and Asia, telling me how very sorry they were for our loss.
But, the double standards exist.
Bush “lied” about weapons of mass destruction. Germany thought they were there as well. Why is not Germany called to account for “lying”?
Abu Ghraid. Members of the military reported abuse that occurred in late 2003. A criminal investigate was launched.. The problem was reported by the military during a news briefing in January and criminal charges were brought in March. The MSM broke the story in April of 2004. Of those directly involved with these shameful actions: . 2 NCOs are now in prison. 5 Specilists are also serving hard time as is Pvt. England.
Contrast this to a case in the 90s. Belgian troops ROASTED a Somali boy! These troops were sentenced to a month in jail and a fine of 200 pounds. Others in the same unit were investigated for sadism and torture. Defense Minister Jean-Pol Poncelet gave assurances that any soldier convicted would be dishonorably discharged. I sure that will make Didier Bourguet relax a bit, IF he ever is brought to trial!
Does anyone but me see a double standard?
On 9/11 our news showed very little. We did not see the people who jumped from the WTC to escape the fire. We saw very little, on the nightly news, of the celebrations in the streets in the Middle East. But, the Internet was available.
What are we suppose to think when we see celebrations in the Middle East, in the street, because of the deaths on 9/11 and little to nothing from the Muslim communities in the USA and from many of the Muslim countries to denounce 9/11?
What are we suppose to think when people are beheaded (actually, their heads were SAWED off, slowly)? There was more condemnation about a Koran flushed down a toilet! (And, please, if anyone believes this actually happened…..try flushing a book down YOUR toilet!)
With the double standard, I have questions. Will Germans help us? Should we help Germany if they do not help us?
Comment by JLWB - January 16, 2006 @ 9:10 pm
Yeah, what would our world be without so caring tender-hearted persons as you are one.
Something bothers thou? Call 555-CLAUDIA-HAS-THE-BOMBS
I think I’ll now thankfully sit down and rewrite Eric Idle’s FCC Song just for you Samaritans (http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3).
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 16, 2006 @ 10:13 pm
Capt. Fubar wrote:
Don Loc,
Christianity has developed, but it isn’t really worse or better from the Islam base per se. Take the KKK, the Nazis, Bush’s bombing “in the name of god”, they all did it with or for the Christian god just a few years ago. So at least they proclaimed
Don’t get me wrong, i don’t want to white-wash Christianity or any other faith, but you can’t ignore there are fundamental differences between islam and any other religion. islam is not merely a religion but an all-round ideology with political, juridical and religious parts in it. And - unfortunatly - the political and juridical parts are very strong and central aspects not only in the fundamental streams but also in so-called “moderate” islam. I’m not against discussing about problems with christianity but comparing it with islam is like comparing a murderer with a shoplifter so the discussion has to be split off on this matter.
Furthermore the Nazis were atheists, not christians - especially Hitler. Undoubtly there were christians participating in the crimes of the nazis but there is no justification for these crimes in the bible nor does the bible invite to them. The Nazis also had a Muslim-SS-Division, just as a side note ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html )
ralphieboy wrote:
Please keep it civil, folks. If you want to trade insults, get each other’s prive atddresses and do it there.
Thanks, your appeal is much appreciated.
Comment by Don Loc - January 17, 2006 @ 1:44 am
I know the Nazis were atheists but they used/misused references to God to justify their predomination.
Interesting, didn’t know about the Mufti/Hitler connection. I suppose it was based on mere pragmatism, (just like the Hitler/Stalin pact before WWII) since both wanted to get rid of the Jews.
The Bible:
It does not invite to do crimes, ok, but neighter does the Qur’an directly. It’s what the people read out of it! The Muslims by the way see themselves as the continuation of the Christians and the Jews, they all praise the same God, recognize almost the same bunch of prophets and share lores, so you cannot seperate the ideologies and judge the one without the other. I have read parts of the Qur’an out of curiosity and it IS more tough towards “disbelievers”, almost brutal, so it’s no wonder there are so many radicals within the Islam. However, you cannot prejudge every Islam believer for this, else you’ll end up no better a radical.
To those of you who are afraid the Islam might take over the world: These folks, especially the fundamentalists, the Mullahs, are so much at odds with each other - there’s no chance of an Islamic “world domination”.
Cheers
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 17, 2006 @ 2:54 am
Those of you who still think moderate Islam believers are no better than radicals, answer me why in Arabic, Islām derives from the three-letter root Sīn-Lām-Mīm (س-ل-م), which means “to be in peaceful submission; to surrender; to obey; peace” , and why their greeting As-Salāmu alaykum means “Peace be upon you”.
You cannot seriously put 1.5 Billion people in the same pot as Iran’s Mufti and the other radicals that have to be dealt with, can you?
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 17, 2006 @ 3:03 am
Neither can i, nor do i or anyone else here i think. But the problem lies deeper.
The Bible:
It does not invite to do crimes, ok, but neighter does the Qur’an directly. It’s what the people read out of it!
Well, the quran actually invites to what we would define as crimes in many suras. Also, the quran is not subject to interpretation as it is the given word of allah. The reason not every muslim is a mudjaheddin is that not every muslim is as pious as the “radicals” (most ppl just have enough to do with their daily life - another reason, btw, why terrorism is notcreated by poverty but by ideology). The problem with islam is
- its lack of reform towards modern ages
- that reform-orientated muslims are branded as apostates and threatend with death and even killed
- its more than a religion, its an ideology. Pious muslims want to live under sharia-law, which is absolutly incompatible with modern democracy and human rights as we know them
- the absolute absence of self-criticism in islam which again leads to the above mentioned stagnation
Ok, but what to do?
The only possibility in my opinion is to help and promote reform-orientated muslims so that a modern islam will be created and spread through the world. Furthermore not only the west but all non-muslim nations have to put pressure on muslim world in order to force them to respect the rights of women and minorities. If we could free the muslimas from the oppression of the muslim man then - maybe - the women could play a big role in changing islam from the violent fascist doctrine it is now into a peaceful faith. Unfortunatly - i think - a lot of blood will flow before this will eventually happen. If it will happen… i hope so.
Well, good night for now
Comment by Don Loc - January 17, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
Yes, I’ve read parts of the Qu’ran, some of which say things like “go put your sword unto the unbeliever”. But don’t forget about the evangelical crusades, people like Charles the Great executing every pagan who didn’t convert to Christianity.
The Old Testament of the Bible isn’t any better, it shares a lot of things with the Qu’ran. It is the wide spread of the Protestants’ favoring the New Testament that makes the Christians look like good sheep.
http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 17, 2006 @ 9:54 pm
It is a matter of cause and effect and depends on whether you see religion as the cause of problems or as the excuse given for them. I find a lot of Islamic countries are socially and politically backward macho male-dominated societies whose reactionaries use the Koran as an excuse.
Both the Bible and the Koran (don’t forget that the Old Testament is common to both religions) have some unsavory rules & precepts about them, I find it fortunate that most of Western society has overcome them to a greater extent than most Islamic countries.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 18, 2006 @ 12:11 am
Yeah, you have a point there, the backward macho stereotype! I personally wouldn’t want to live in one of those countries, too. (Though I have done so already.). But if you see the Qu’ran / the Islam as the basic cause of human rights infringements in Muslim countries: You give the despots just another excuse for their misdeed and a reason to not take you serious. A book itself doesn’t do crimes.
Good night
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 18, 2006 @ 1:54 pm