Mr. Bush, tear down this prison!
Remember last year’s election in Germany? What a mess that was! I wouldn’t want to be chancellor over there right now, let alone chancellorette. I don’t delve into German politics too much but I think it’s safe to say that Frau Merkel will have a tough time getting anything accomplished in the next four years. It’s a disaster for the German people who desperately need a leader who l-e-a-d-s.
Nobody has shown me her to-do list, but according to Spiegel Online Merkel plans to travel to America and demand the closing of Guantanamo. Now, is that the pro-American approach that some of us have been hoping for?
Merkel: “Eine Institution wie Guantanamo kann und darf auf Dauer so nicht existieren. Es müssen Mittel und Wege für einen anderen Umgang mit den Gefangenen gefunden werden.”
Do I have to translate this? Alright, basically she’s saying that institutions such as Guantanamo must not exist and a different way of treating prisoners needs to be found. What an agenda for her first meeting with the president of the United States! If I were Bush I’d call in sick that day.
If I were Angela Merkel …let me start over, if I were chancellor of Germany and invited to the White House I’d fall on my knees in front of Bush and humbly mumble: “I come in peace and I brought you some German chocolate cake.”
Perhaps Merkel should be more concerned about the closing down of the natural gas pipelines from Russia than the the closing of GITMO. I wonder which one will have more effect on the German people.
Comment by L. Burg - January 7, 2006 @ 10:30 am
The question of Guantanamo is one of accountability and separation of powers. No matter how noble the cause - and none is more noble than protecting innocent civilians against terrorism - errors and even abuses will occur.
There must be mechanisms in place to help prevent them in the first place and to make violators answer for their actions.
Still, one wonders what prompted Angie to take a stance that outdoes even her predecessor in annoying America. Or has she written Bush off already? Maybe she knows something we don’t know yet!
Comment by ralphieboy - January 7, 2006 @ 11:29 am
It is unlikely the visit will be the one she implies. The American president is just meeting with a newly elected European leader, which is normal. The meetings are predictable, and she is not going to suddenly lurch into a pompous lecture while the president sits and silently listens.
Comment by Dawn - January 7, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
I’d like to give Frau Merkel a chance. She is not the only one to voice concerns about how to handle people like those at Gitmo. They wore no uniform, followed no rules of war. She said: “Different ways and means must be found for dealing with these prisoners.” (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,394094,00.html)
The civilized world does indeed need to figure out how to handle these animals.
If it her idea to follow the treatment of Mohammad Ali Hammadi, she will get a very polite and very cold reception in DC.
I worry more about the statements from Karsten Voigt in the related article. (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,393499,00.html) “I’m concerned that the image of America as a haven of state legality where the state protects the personal freedom of individuals has suffered,” “I hope people in the US are aware of the problem.”
He is suppose to understand Americans. He doesn’t seem to know we ARE aware, VERY aware! Many of us also know why Colin Powel was angry in 2003. Many also remember Robert Stethem! We have watched as German leaders have promoted anti-American feelings to win elections. We have read their news.
@ralphieboy
There must be mechanisms in place to help prevent them in the first place and to make violators answer for their actions.”
Do you think mechanisms are not in place? Do you think that violators have not had to answer?
Comment by JLWB - January 7, 2006 @ 6:12 pm
“Do I have to translate this?”
Spiegel’s English site promised to have the interview on Monday…
Comment by Atlanticus - January 8, 2006 @ 3:21 am
JLWB,
the point with the NSA eavesdropping and Guantanamo is that the mechanisms are being ignored or circumvented, and when someone is called to answer, it is a low-level grunt like Pfc Lynndie England, and not a decision maker.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 8, 2006 @ 11:32 am
@ ralphieboy
“the mechanisms are being ignored or circumvented”
I don’t want to put words in your “mouth”, so, can you please explain what you mean and give examples?
Comment by JLWB - January 8, 2006 @ 5:11 pm
Its all quite simple, really. What Merkel does is merely the typical german-politician reflex. She has problems in Germany, her coalition is dominated by socialdemocratic politics a la Schröder and hardly any changes in the direction of welfarestate, healthcare, tax-system have been accomplished so far, except for raising the consum-tax by 3 points (a compromise between CDUs prefered 2 points and SPDs prefered 0 points… German logic again!)
And what happens if things don’t go your way? When you’re a German politician, simply get out your beloved Antiamericanism-Club and you know, most Germans will actually agree with you. In the end, everyone is happy again… maybe except a few misguided fools that actually started thinking themselves and don’t believe the US is the great satan…
It doesnt have to do with Gitmo anyway. If Mrs. Merkel would really be interested in helping the US finding a way to handle the problem with the jihadists, she could so without such big tam-tam (=noise) via the existing diplomatic channels. But this way it looks like a mere try to divert attention from the crap work her gouvernment actually provides.
Comment by Don Loc - January 9, 2006 @ 4:01 am
L. Burg,
You need to cut Frau Merkel some slack. Of course she’s concerned about the Russian pipe-lines—after all, in order to keep the ‘forced’ mass deportation of the Roma’s on schedule, she needs that fuel! Ja-Ja
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/18/news/roma.php
Comment by Claudia - January 9, 2006 @ 4:08 am
JLWB,
There is a mechanism in place to grant warrants, even retroactively, for wiretapping. The NSA just ignored them. The main “mechanism” that has been in place for over two centuries now is the US Constitution, which has been effectively short-circuited.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 9, 2006 @ 7:53 am
9. Claudia, Your comment is well taken. I guess Frau Merkel is attempting to solve the German welfare state problem as well.
Comment by L. Burg - January 9, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
L. Burg,
All Frau Merkel has to do is, feed the “homeless” (Roma’s) to the “hungry” (the German’s) and problemo solved! No wasted fuel, the German people eat, and no more nasty little immigration problem. Damn…I’m a genius!
Comment by Claudia - January 9, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
Claudia,
I guess that will work as long as there is a Kneitinger to wash it all down.
Comment by L. Burg - January 9, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
ralphieboy,
I have many questions on the wiretapping and am not so sure that NSA “just ignored” the rules. One thing Bush has said clearly is that these taps crossed international boarders. Were they tapped outside of the USA? If so, I think they are legal, even if a US person is involved. Was the person who picked up the phone in the USA a US person? If not, would they have constitutional rights? Amendment IV says “unreasonable searches”. Would it be “reasonable” to tap if someone was talking to say, Zarqawie and was in the US illegally? Would that even be subject to FISA review?
I wonder why FISA was bypassed when there were about 2000 submitted with most being approved. Why not put in a few more rather than have this stink, unless there is more to this than is being reported
I think I’ll wait for more information before getting my panties in a twist J
Comment by JLWB - January 9, 2006 @ 7:29 pm
JLWB,
I don’t wear anything under my kilt except in mixed company (and during the thistle harvest).
Part of my suspicions arise from past conduct: the FISA was instituted after it came out that the FBI and CIA were wiretapping antiwar protestors and other “hostile elements”, as in hostile to the Nixon administration.
The very volume of the wiretapping seems to indicate that we are either in deep trouble or that they are eavesdropping on people who have noting to do with terorists, domestic or foreign.
The fact that Bush is now coming after the leaker indicates that there is a lot more to it than is being reported, and I cannot help but be suspicious about the motives of the people behind it all.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 10, 2006 @ 2:57 am
M. Meyn: “I come in peace and I brought you some German chocolate cake.”
Mr Meyn, may I ask on what kind of argumentational basis you’d say that to Mr Bush? I supposed you haven’t checked out our beloved Abu Ghraib Love Story or , uh? What kind of weird brown-noser are you?
Abu Ghraib Love Story
Alright, let’s turn an eye blind and shield out some uncomfortable facts, shall we!
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 12, 2006 @ 10:01 am
If you want to talk about Abu Ghraib, Mr. Fubar, that’s fine. Go ahead. This post, however, is about Merkel and Guantanamo. I might be weird but I like to keep my posts organized. Sorry.
Comment by M. Meyn - January 12, 2006 @ 2:36 pm
Amen to that, let’s keep things separated, our minds focussed.
Welcome to »Guantanamo Bay - CIA Airlines takes you to a renowned lawless adventure trip so geogeous you wouldn’t dare dream of! - Hot sleepless nights filled with pure adrenalin! - All inclusive! (you can leave your luggage at home) - Come with us, anyone can afford it! (really, not only privileged classes, “t.error.ists”) - Enjoy your stay! (so exciting you wouldn’t even want to phone your mates at home for the time being)«
Oh dear.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 12, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
To the ‘ good Germans’ reading this, I apologize for having to remind Fűhrer Fubar that as a German, he need not lecture American’s on prison camps.
Comment by Claudia - January 12, 2006 @ 9:28 pm
Lest we Forget and apparently some have…
http://www.deathcamps.org/websites/jphotoen.htm
When American and coalition forces mistreat a terrorist, they are aptly punished. When a terrorist mistreats a prisoner, they do so by simply sawing off their heads.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200510\FOR20051013a.html
Comment by Claudia - January 12, 2006 @ 9:48 pm
Europe is headed for a train-wreck; a socialist entitlement economy whose bubble is going to burst. Soaring immigration, declining birth rates, and a 50 year policy of all butter and no guns, are resulting in a fiscally bankrupt EU community. The EU community does not have the military power to confront threats or back up its negotiations with outside competitors. A community that thinks France provides good leadership and strategic guidance. Recent negotiations with the Iranians over their nuclear weapons program are the most recent example. The Europeans cloak themselves in high moral purpose to disguise the fact that they do not have any military or economic options when dealing with an aggressive nation like Iran. Within 25 years the EU nations will be broke, have majority immigrant populations, and will most likely be adhering to or adopting aspects of Sharia Law.
And that is if they are not actually fighting each other or reinstituting death camps as was demonstrated in Bosnia.
Meanwhile, we American’s will be leaving the light on at Gitmo.
Comment by Claudia - January 12, 2006 @ 10:22 pm
Claudia,
I don’t want to run down America the way you run down Old Europe, but the way the US economy is developing, it will soon replace all forms of pension plans with the “Magnum Lottery” system: go out and buy a lottery ticket every week until you turn 65. If you haven’t won by then, go buy a Magnum .357 and rob a bank.
Even if you get caught, you will at least have a roof over your head, regular meals and basic medical care for the rest of your life.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 13, 2006 @ 12:25 pm
Claudia,
your comparison of prison camps to concentration camps is good.
So you’d accept the Nazis’ concentration camps as well?
Apart from that: I wasn’t born German and I can’t stand Nazis.
American prison camps is very much in the nature of the Nazis. Except the Nazis had laws to kill their people, American prison camps do not.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 13, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
ralphieboy,
As much as the European’s are themselves enamored of the lottery, I wonder if you’ll be able to still buy a ticket under the Sharia Law?
Comment by Claudia - January 14, 2006 @ 2:08 am
“your comparison of prison camps to concentration camps is good.
So you’d accept the Nazis’ concentration camps as well?
Apart from that: I wasn’t born German and I can’t stand Nazis.
American prison camps is very much in the nature of the Nazis. Except the Nazis had laws to kill their people, American prison camps do not.”
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 13, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
“If your goal is to leave someone dumbfounded with your idiocy, congratulations Fubar, you have achieved at least one goal in your life”.
Comment by Claudia - January 14, 2006 @ 2:56 am
Claudia,
gosh, there’s nothing I appreciate more than the sound of two cats fighting over a red herring…
You must remember LePen’s provocative poster of the Strasbourg cathedral reconverted to a mosque.
The USA spends untold trillions on its military (more than the next forty nations of the world combined) but is unable to put down an insurgency in a run-down wasteland of the country it is currently occupying.
Iran and North Korea know that they can act with impunity because the USA is currently not in a postition to move against them. Are more guns and less butter the answer? Sounds like it’s already time to fire up the draft and start selling War Bonds.
And hey, what the heck, Islamic Law at least calls for helping the poor, not sawing them off and letting them starve…
Comment by ralphieboy - January 14, 2006 @ 4:59 am
Complacency towards the terrorists is what is, and… will continue to, run old Europe into the ground. [sic]
U.N.: Okay Iran, this time we really mean it, you better stop trying to build nukes and threatening to wipe nations off the map!
Iran: I piss in your general direction!
U.N.: Okay Iran, now we’re really really mad!
Iran: (points nuclear warhead towards European capital)
U.N.: We’re not kidding, we are really really really mad Iran, and this time we mean it!
Germany: Close Gitmo! Release all the terrorists err freedom fighters and send them home!
France: (sings: Sweet Surrender)
Sean Penn: Bush makes me smoke!
Capt.Fubar: American prison camps is very much in the nature of the Nazis. Except the Nazis had laws to kill their people, American prison camps do not.
Ralphieboy: And hey, what the heck, Islamic Law at least calls for helping the poor, not sawing them off and letting them starve…
Comment by Claudia - January 14, 2006 @ 5:21 am
Ralphieboy writes:
“The USA spends untold trillions on its military (more than the next forty nations of the world combined) but is unable to put down an insurgency in a run-down wasteland of the country it is currently occupying.”
Imagine the trouble the Europeans will have…but that’s okay, you can trust the moderate Iranians…if you can find some.
Comment by Claudia - January 14, 2006 @ 7:31 am
Ralphieboy, you’d better go read The Death Of The West by Pat Buchanan.
Comment by Balberith - January 14, 2006 @ 8:34 am
Oh sweet Claudia!
Go read on your US propaganda fairy tales
This world is not always just about US or THEM at any price. No matter what, kill kill kill!
Btw, I know someone who was shot at and threatened to be deported to an American prison camp for just investigating some issues.
And Iran IS dangerous and has to be curbed ASAP. But when it comes to US secret service’ lawlessness and WMDs, you happily blindfold yourself.
Welcome to the real world, sweet Claudia.
PS did you take your aggression coping pills yet?
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 14, 2006 @ 9:17 am
Hello Balberith,
this book has nothing new to foretell apart from old school darwinistic paranoia.
Its polemic gibberish could easily be transformed to the opinions of Islamic fundamentalists. They don’t think too different, really.
Cheers
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 14, 2006 @ 9:29 am
Fubar, haven’t you seen what happened in France last year? By about 2040 France will likely be an Islamic republic. Germany too will be a majority Muslim nation around that time.
Comment by Balberith - January 14, 2006 @ 9:39 am
Balberith, I seem to have missed something. What has France’s failure in coping with poverty to do with the religious affiliation of the minorities living there?
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 14, 2006 @ 9:52 am
Poverty in France? Are you kidding. France is basically a socialist nation where the top earners pay a 60% income tax rate. This is a clash of civilizations plain and simple. Hell, over in Dearborn Michigan pork was outlawed in schools there because of so many Muslim students.
Comment by Balberith - January 14, 2006 @ 10:30 am
Balberith, seeing how few among Christians actually perform their believe, go to church etc, I’d say your concern has almost come true!
Yet, our EU republics are free of religious direction, our (German) economy and culture are one of the world’s best established. France hit the news because it has ignored poverty for decades. We have integration problems with immigrants but these have nothing to do with religion or origin. May I ask if your concern is based on mere racial resentment?
Cheers
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 14, 2006 @ 10:51 am
There is no racial resentment I’m just laying out facts.
Comment by Balberith - January 14, 2006 @ 11:11 am
Ok. Random facts?
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 14, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
Fubar,
In my world it is US or THEM. It’s called “survival of the fittest”. Just because you don’t believe in reality doesn’t mean reality doesn’t have a surprise for you.
I work out my weekly aggression by harassing the weak, defenseless, and stupid… and that’s just on the internet. Shall we go for another round –Fubar?
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 12:04 am
You go Claudia!
Comment by Balberith - January 15, 2006 @ 7:21 am
B&C,
Remember the “Yellow Peril” arising from all the Chinese immigrants who ostensibly threatened our civilzation at the turn of the 20th century? And the “Papist threat” from all the Italian and Irish Immigrants who arrived on the East coast? As far as I know, America is not beholden to either Peking or Rome.
There is a ‘clash of civilizations’ going on, but it is not necessarily Islam vs. Christianity, it is a case of fundamentalism vs. rationalism. Bush aids fundamentalists’ cause by behving in a manner that confirms their image of USA as the Zionist puppet and aggressor who bombs & strafes innocent civilians and Imperial ruler who supports corrupt dictatorships as long as they sell him oil.
The Islamic fundamentalists return the favor by funding terrorists to kill innocent civilians.
I also find it funny that a lot of folks who oppose Darwinism in biology seem to be support the “us vs. them” view of Social Darwinism. I promote the “Intelligent Design” approach to social policy.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 8:10 am
This American Imperialist Pig-Dog is godless. I personally think that, while the theory of evolution is good, it doesn’t answer all my queries (e.g., abiogenesis). Neither does any soteriological construct. I think that we don’t know who or what created us, why it/they created us, and if we even started on this planet. Furthermore…I don’t care. I’m not concerned about an ‘after-life’; I’m concerned about ‘this life’. I’m concerned that someone might want to blow my ass to “kingdom-come” (pun intended) in the here and now. Neither President Bush nor America is responsible for the world’s ills. As usual, we will fix the world’s ills as best we can (like it or not) because, no one else will!
Regarding oil, most people like heating their homes in the winter or fueling their cars. Oil…I’m for it!
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 9:09 am
I actually disagree with your assertion that Bush is a “godless pig-dog”, I think that in his heart, he really believes the things that he is sent out to say. That is one of the things that makes him so credible to a lot of people.
I *do* think that Dick Cheney and the rest of the neocon cabal behind the throne are truly godless pig-dogs who will stop at nothing to maintain and expand their power.
As for oil, it is a good and useful thing if we use it judiciously. But America and Europe, comprising just 10% of the world’s population, are using up nearly half of its oil reserves.
It causes us a lot of trouble, starting with the fact that our dependence on it leaves us very intensely involved with a politically and religiously backward part of the world.
And another reason that Iranian fundamentalists know that they can act with impunity is because neither America or Europe can afford to hit them with an embargo without driving the price of oil to record levels, which would seriously dampen our economic growth.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 9:22 am
I was referring to myself as the American Imperialist Pig-Dog who happens to also be godless.
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 9:34 am
I am a practicing heathen, but I recognize that I come from a Christian background and a Christian culture.
And I think that anyone who sets out to harm the innocent is an abomination to Christianity, Islam, and humanity in general.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 10:04 am
Listen, don’t you think we all have deluded ourselves into thinking, only ‘we’ are innocent? Know what I mean?
Comment by Claudia - January 15, 2006 @ 10:13 am
I don’t believe in Original sin (no sin is original!), if that is what you’re asking. But as is the case of the CIA installing the Shah in Iran in the 1950’s, leading to a fundamentalist Islamist revolution, it is an example of the Sins of the Fathers visiting upon the sons.
I have even learned to come to grips with the thought that innocent civilians can sometimes become “collateral damage” in the war on terrorism. It is the terrorists’ intentional targeting of civilians that I cannot tolerate.
Comment by ralphieboy - January 15, 2006 @ 11:02 am