Chica Sheehan: No more war, por favor!
Cindy Sheehan hasn’t exactly been known for drawing crowds to her anti-war protests. Thanks to the mainstream media she used get a lot of attention but those days are over now. Many people assume that was the price she had to pay for criticizing Hillary Clinton on her position on the war in Iraq. A bold and equally dumb move, almost as dumb as trying to make the public believe that Iraq was hit by several nuclear bombs and is now contaminated pretty much for all eternity.
So now Cindy is shedding tears in Madrid, Spain. I remember her making that threat a while back. If I’m correct London will be next (This warning was brought to you by KLEENEX. KLEENEX, the soft tissue for any teary issue!) Maybe it was her buddy Michael Moore who told her to go global. I think it’s possible.
An impressive crowd of 100 protesters gathered in front of the US Embassy. “Iraq is worse than Vietnam!” was the informative slogan of the day. I swear to you, there were more people standing in line for the buffet at the Paris Hotel last night. We almost turned around and left. But it was worth the wait. Great food! I think I had about 5 pounds of shrimp alone.
Uhm, I just noticed that my post is already three times as long as the article about Sheehan’s successful anti-war protest. I better bring this to a close fast. Enjoy the rest of the weekend and PLEASE don’t forget: London could be next!
Are you sure? As far as I know she has already been in London. But maybe I err.
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 10:39 am
OH MY GOD!!! Any reports on the casualties?
Comment by M. Meyn - December 18, 2005 @ 11:20 am
Two explosions in the tube and one in a bus. But, so sorry, she could escape.
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 11:58 am
Anyone know if she is coming to Germany? I’m curious how the anti-American German media would spin her tour-de-farce if she comes.
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 12:34 pm
No, she will not spend any time in Germany. Thank God! She is only touring in GB and Spain.
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 12:44 pm
Oh damn! A must-see picture!
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 12:53 pm
Thanks, J.
Frohe Weihnachten
Glückliches Hanuka
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 1:08 pm
J., that picture of Cindy Sheehan– is her reaction to the news she wouldn’t be coming to Germany.
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 1:10 pm
One cup of war, please!
Miss Underestimated..eh.. Claudia, where has the German media (the good one) ever been “anti-American” after Hitler left for good? You are probably talking of “anti-Dubbya”?
There’s a hell of a big difference.
Cindy Sheehan may have been a somewhat naive person, but, well… she’s lost her son in war! I bet you would change your opinion slightly if the same happened to you, no? Bashing her is just as prudent as hailing to Michael Moore’s silly movies.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 18, 2005 @ 1:39 pm
Thanks, Claudia! Though I’m not celebrating Hanukkah, I will enjoy CHRISTMAS (best regards to the ACLU etc.) time, because Jesus is the reason for the season
Merry Christmas to you, too!
P.S.: And I thought, Cindy has got gas
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 1:56 pm
Hey Capt., you can’t know, but she is not Miss Underestimated. And believe me, I’m sure
Comment by J. Krafzik - December 18, 2005 @ 2:05 pm
Capt. Fubar,
Just to be clear, I’m not the same Claudia of Misunderestimated. I’m not as sweet as she. I get my information about the German anti-American media from living here in Germany. One only need turn on the t.v. or read the papers/magazines.(e.g., Der Spiegel ) Also, living in Germany, I have many conversations (run-ins) with German’s who parrot Germany’s propaganda against the U.S. Indeed, America has it’s own propaganda machine, the liberal media.
To be fair, many of my neighbors who have been to America, or, have met we American’s– don’t seem to find us anything like ‘Satan’s war-mongering whores’ that we are purported to be. Equally, I do not find all German’s to be mutant’s of Hitler’s youth. Granted, I’ve only lived in Germany a total (on and off) of 26 years so, maybe I am reading all the wrong papers/magazines. Perhaps there are t.v. channels that I am not aware of that have fair reporting concerning America. Do enlighten me to these channels/papers/magazines if that is so.
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 2:23 pm
Capt. Fubar,
If my son were to die in any war, I would not go around the world calling he and his comrades–’invading murdering criminals’. Yes, my son is a soldier as is my husband. One is in Iraq at the moment. One just came back from a second tour. Any other queries?
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 2:35 pm
Hi J., hi Claudia.
Claudia, sorry for mistaking you for the other Claudia.
Many people here in Germany do not approve Mr Bush’s and his staff’s politics, neither do I. As you can see, the problem is many people just don’t have no clue about the US apart from what they get to know in TV, BILD and common hype. They’re polemics who just “hate America” cause bashing something big is so utterly cool. And I can understand you’re fed up with it. However, can’t point you to German media entities that 100% stand behind the current US administration (wouldn’t read them anyway), but I hope you know not everyone here hates America and the American people.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 18, 2005 @ 3:49 pm
Capt. Fubar,
I know many German’s do not hate American’s. Do you think I would live here if everyone was anti-American? I was speaking mainly of the media; though, on rare occasions I do get harassed when someone hears me speaking in English and they always quote what they have heard/read via the media.
When I am confronted with those that hate we American’s, they undoubtedly bring up President Bush. When I ask these same people why they hate President Bush, or, how has he effected their lives, none can answer me. I have yet to meet one person who is anti-Bush that can tell me how he has effected them, or anyone they know. By the way, I don’t always agree with Bush and I’m an ‘ independent’– not a democrat or conservative. I do support Bush concerning Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I believe if it weren’t for the liberal media in America, our troops would be able to get their jobs done at a more proficient rate.
All these people screaming Bush went in to Iraq illegally are wrong. It is a blatant lie. We, under the terms of surrender, were legally allowed to resume the war the moment Saddam violated that very surrender he signed. Under ex-president Clinton, we allowed him to violate the surrender terms for 7 years.
I have yet to hear from any anti-military crowd– their railing against Clinton for ‘invading’ the Balkans. In fact,. Clinton said before his first election that he would never send our troops into the Balkans. Of course he lied. Then, he went on to say after he sent troops to the Balkans, they would only be there a year. That was how many years ago?
I have news for you Capt. Fubar, if Germany were to be attacked with the likes of our 9-11, it would be American soldiers standing next to your fine German soldiers in defending Germany. That is a fact.
Comment by Claudia - December 18, 2005 @ 4:29 pm
This woman is a true embarrasement.
Comment by L. Burg - December 18, 2005 @ 4:50 pm
Hey Claudia,
I am sure American soldiers would help us.. So would we when it is applicable and so we’ve done in New Orleans to what was apt.
The Balkans is another story. The international community, especially NATO, UN and Europe’s countries, failed to organize military force in time. Conflict was ongoing for years, everyone with a healthy common sense agreed it was necessary to get a grip on to stop the killings and the chaos.
Back to Iraque and Afghanistan.
The war in Afghanistan had a connection to 9/11: The Mullahs there hid terrorists. The soldiers there, Germans as well, were welcomed by many of the inhabitants. But Iraque..??
“The terms of surrender”: Are you talking of the never found nuke assets? The never found bioweapons? Or the nonexistant connection between Saddam and 09/11? Would the American people have agreed to the invasion and death of 2′000 sons and 30′000 Iraquees without these bogus “proven by secret service” legitimation? Oh wait, “We don’t do body counts” - General Tommy Franks, US Central Command. So much for the “lies” issue.
If you say the war on Iraque was legal because Saddam broke treaties, then how can you say US military action on Iraque was legal? Bush didn’t adhere to UN treaties. Bush even spoke out warnings: If only one US soldier be brought to International Criminal Court for _war_crime_, he’d send troops to Den Hague immediately, he proclaimed. Yes, there was the American Servicemembers’ Protection Act behind it, but if international law does not count, Madam, what we get is Anarchy.
So what can we expect from tomorrow’s newspapers?
*** NEWS: Bombs on Al-Jazeera! This time Mr Tony Poodle didn’t chicken out! ***
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 18, 2005 @ 6:22 pm
Capt. Fubar: “The Balkans is another story. The international community, especially NATO, UN and Europe’s countries, failed to organize military force in time.”
The Europeans belatedly supported a completely ineffectual United Nations Force (IFOR) in Bosnia. It essentially accomplished nothing and stood idly by while genocide was committed by all three sides. Seeing that the “international community” and UN would continue to sit on their hands and that the EU couldn’t organize a military marching band, the United States and Great Britain demanded a NATO role to stabilize Bosnia and stop the war. NATO forces (overwhelmingly comprising U.S. military) conducted a bloodless invasion and occupation of Bosnia. This was preceded by use of US led NATO air strikes against Bosnian Serbia and selective American military assistance to the Muslims and Croats in order to bring Milosevic to heel at the Dayton peace process. American force of arms (with significant British contributions) effectively ended the war, separated the factions, and has insured the peace for the last decade. Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, etc are now turn-key operations where certain UN / EU parties can pretend (at little risk or cost) that they are contributing something concrete to world harmony.
Ask 700,000 dead Rwandans what they think of the “ United Nations” and the “ World Court”. Next time your house is on fire, ask a committee of a few hundred people to vote on whether to send fire trucks
in-between power lunches at Geneva and New York.
Saddam violated the terms of the 1991 armistice (cease-fire) after his military was soundly defeated by a UN sanctioned and approved Coalition Force. On this basis alone, we had legal authority to attack Iraq in 2003 in response to repeated military provocations between 1991 and then. Not to mention Iraq’s complete disregard for umpteen standing UN resolutions beginning w/ 687 and ending with 1441.
Capt. Fubar: “Bush didn’t adhere to UN treaties.”
What treaties? By whom? Signed when? Treaties are formally signed documents of public record. Name one…
Ultimately the U.S. went into Iraq in 2003 because we didn’t want to wait for the Europeans (again) to ignore a new Adolph Hitler until it was too late. No more “ Peace in our time”. We take out our own trash…with or without anyone else’s help.
Comment by Claudia - December 19, 2005 @ 2:13 am
L. Burg,
You say the sweetest things–which is not to be outdone by your brilliant expose’ on my character.
Have a great Holiday, O’ sagacious one.
Comment by Claudia - December 19, 2005 @ 2:44 am
Cindy Sheehan has only reached as far as she could with the help of the MSM in America. As well as help from other left-wing organizations. She was and remains a farce. As a parent who has lost children, I can sympathize with her pain. I cannot sympathize with her regarding the War on Terror. I thank God that she isn’t going to be coming to Germany. It is alreasy difficult enough to live here as an American. Even my youngest students, 1st and 2nd class, openly state hatred for George W. Bush and they haven’t got a clue who he is. They are repeating what they hear at home and in the schools. Some of my older students go crazy regarding President Bush, frothing at the mouth as they make a villain out of him.
My wife and I have lost friendships over the war on terror and the situation regarding Israel and Palestine. I never dreamed that the German people could be so impolite as to verbally attack an American citizen at a party, but that has happened to me. I am not responsible for the foreign policy of the United States, just as an individual German citizen isn’t responsible for the foreign policy of Germany. I have had to listen to people call my countrymen murderers, killers and aggressors. I thought that the German people were a little more refined that this, but to my dismay they are not. There have been exceptions to this view but not many. I would like to see a change happen, espcially within the media of Germany, to be less hateful and to spread less anti-Americanism.
It is good to have blogs where we can discuss this openly and sanely.
N. Hale
Comment by N. Hale - December 19, 2005 @ 4:01 am
Look, here’s is what’s happening concerning the German media. Media being German professional people in their late 20’s to early 50’s, give or take. Almost all of whom were born after WWII. They spent their formative years learning that their country was reviled for its actions in WWII and grew up under a massive cultural guilt syndrome. However, for these people WWII is not a personal experience but rather just a chunk of history that happened to their fathers and grandfathers. Add to this the fact that the present German cultural elite (media, educators, clergy, etc.) were reared, from the 1950’s to the present, in a socialist society espousing pacifism. Quite simply, after six decades of living a guilt trip, it makes them feel good to be able to criticize someone else while claiming the moral high ground.
Actually, Germany should thank America for helping them skirt their own issues. (note sarcasm)
Comment by Claudia - December 19, 2005 @ 4:42 am
Claudia,
I hope you do not think that my comment was directed at you. NO, NO, NO, NO. It’s that Sheehan woman I was referring.
Comment by L. Burg - December 19, 2005 @ 1:00 pm
“and grew up under a massive cultural guilt syndrome.”
Pardon, you should know Germany was not the only country that objected the wars and George Dubbya’s foreign affairs. Considering that your theory is wrong.
I don’t have the time to reply to your earlier post right now, sorry, maybe later. cya
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 19, 2005 @ 10:25 pm
Capt. Fubar,
a( I’m not wrong, it’s a fact and not a theory
b( it’s not that you don’t have time, it’s that you don’t have an answer.
Comment by Claudia - December 20, 2005 @ 8:54 am
Capt. Fubar,
Come out–come out–wherever you are!
Jeremy Bol has an excellent post on his site on WMD’s and the Iraq war. Read it and weep boy!
http://www.warmonger.mu.nu/ December 20, 2005
Comment by Claudia - December 21, 2005 @ 3:39 pm
Hehe, we might have lost him forever, Claudia
Comment by M. Meyn - December 21, 2005 @ 6:05 pm
Claudia,
“a( I’m not wrong, it’s a fact and not a theory”
Your fact (”guilt trip”) implies an assumption (”makes them feel good to be able to criticize someone else”), which is a theory, whether you like it or not. You are not entirely wrong, there is quite some truth in it. I came to Germany from the other side of the wall and learned to recognize the typical Germans’ attitudes and take ‘em for what they are. But, pardon, yours is a leaky explanation for Germany’s abstention from the wars. Most Germans are not mere brain-washed hippies. And besides it doesn’t apply to the other countries which objected the wars.
I understand you’re eager to explain the opinion of your fellowcitizens’ majority which is contrary to yours, but by putting up stereotypes you could explain anything. This is just lame. Or is this The Right Way[tm]?
“b( it’s not that you don’t have time, it’s that you don’t have an answer.”
Thank you so much for enlightening me. Now I see light at the end of the right wing tunnel…
Excuse me, but only cause I’m rather out of time doesn’t mean I don’t have an answer. You cannot always put up your opinion packaged in a quick slogan. I can’t. Apart from that, I’m getting the impression you won’t read carefully enough anyway, since, afterall, you’ve got the punch of undisputable arguments on your side.
M. Meyn,
Exactly.
Nonetheless, a merry Christmas, happy Hannukah or whatever to everyone! (..and don’t fall while sliding into your new years)
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 25, 2005 @ 8:56 am
Capt. Fubar,
I haven’t any idea what you’re on about and I doubt you do either. Nice job of dialectic acrobatics. I back up my statements with data (provided via links) and you back up your inane rhetoric with more inane rhetoric. Ah, it’s good to be me and sucks to be you!
Comment by Claudia - December 25, 2005 @ 10:49 am
Dear Claudia,
I have enjoyed your comments! Thoughtful, researched and I’ve learned a few things. For that I am thankful.
Fubar reminds me of a liberal teacher (who I really like but don’t agree with) that I travel with in Germany…..with a couple dozen students in tow. At the end of one trip, she told me that: “you have all the facts but I know what I believe in my heart”….
OK
Fubar is as his handle says……
or he is VERY young and should be forgiven. After all, “if you are not liberal in your youth you are heartless, if you are not conservative as an adult you are stupid”…or something like that.
So, Fubar is just f*** up beyond all recognition…. or very young……or stupid.
Or he is just a troll.
Then again, my 17 year old can argue these points with far more information behind him…hmmm. My 25 year old is one of those “kill happy” soldiers >;-) He was even in Iraq from the start of the war until March 5th, 2004.
As for Germans, I so miss my friends in Germany! Perhaps those from Munich are more special….or maybe I just know so many from that area….I wish all of you….German or American…a wonderful holiday! I’d say Merry Christmas, but, even our Christmas day is almost over…and I’m on the west coast!
And I thank the Misundersestimated for this site! Open communication goes a long way!
Jane
PS……Fubar..You might want to actually read some of the web sites of the Islamic fundamentalists…they are very clear in their views! Get rid of the Great Satan first…then go after the little Satan. What will you do if we are gone and they come after you?
Comment by JLWB - December 25, 2005 @ 9:04 pm
Three great links concerning WMD’s in Iraq. There is no question Saddam had WMD’s, the question now is, “where the hell did they go?!”
http://www.psywarrior.com/IraqNoFlyZone.html Scroll down to the bottom of the page, the last paragraph speaks of WMD’s and then on to the next page.
http://www.warmonger.mu.nu/ I’m reposting this as Jeremy Bol’s has done an excellent job explaining the whole sordid affair. Scroll down to Dec. 20, 2005 WMD’s.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html
Comment by Claudia - December 26, 2005 @ 1:53 am
JLWB,
I read some Islamic fundamentalists’ sites and I read some pro-Dubbya. It’s always easy to spread Fear Doubt and Uncertainty and draw people on one side and make them think and act almost as bad as what they feared, doubted and were uncertain with. Since you’re a bit older than your “kill happy”-son, you should be mature enough to realize this world isn’t always just black and white, God and Satan, Patriot Act and Mujaheddin. I am pretty well informed through neutral reports, direct experience with good _and_ bad muslims, I talked to you and I talked to war crime researchers. I am not an “against”-hippy. But most of you conservatives seem to be biased as hell can be.
JLWB: “So, Fubar is just f*** up beyond all recognition…. or very young……or stupid.
Or he is just a troll.”
You write THESE two lines one after another? That’s really clever strategy, man. Thank you.
Claudia,
“I haven’t any idea what you’re on about…”
Sure, how could it be different. Whenever I bring a damn proof you conservatives say something stupid or far-fetched instead of a fair discussion.
This blog’s good for biased entertainment, but it’s wasted time. I’m off.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 26, 2005 @ 2:03 am
Capt. Fubar,
You have yet to address any of the data (proof) I’ve posted. You are quite proficient at the ‘straw man’ tactic. Again, I am neither a Democrat, Conservative, or Christian for that matter. While I’m all for exercise– your mental gymnastics is rather tiresome.
No doubt that, when you sit down, your voice muffles.
Comment by Claudia - December 26, 2005 @ 2:56 am
Hey Claudia,
I read your comment n°18 once again and it’s historically very profound, that’s good. But it is not complete, there were more things happening. At least, not to mention, US secret service ever since supporting most of those terrorists whom they try to fight right now, giving drugs, weapons and countless amounts of money to them, with which the terrorists now kill US’ sons. But the most important fact, in my opinion, was that US didn’t went into Iraq to bring there democracy in the first place, but to save the dollar rate, since Saddam was an ultimate threat; he said he’d defeat any dollar but take euros instead for oil. That was the point when US decided to go into Iraq. Then came democracy. This is important. For the terrorism thing, Saddam wasn’t a terrorist threat to the world nor to US/UK at that time really, he was mainly a threat to his own people and to his country’s neighbours, that was nothing new. For the democracy US/UK could have at least waited until the UN resolution and saved themselves and everyone lots of trouble and more alliance members were ready for war, for the dollar they couldn’t. Economy runs at fast pace.
“What treaties? By whom?”
I was talking about the UN resolution Bush needed to start military action, since the USofA is a commited member of the UN. Every member needs a resolution to start bombing houses, so does US/UK. There wasn’t enough proof for Saddam to be a direct harassment to the world and what the US’ secret service gave as proof: Much of it was a lie or a speculation as we know today (and as Bush and Cheney already admitted).
Now, before you bite me back, would YOU please go ahead and answer my questions in comment n°17? Especially:
“Would the American people have agreed to the invasion and death of >2′000 sons and >30′000 Iraquees without these bogus “proven by secret service” legitimation?”
Thank you.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 26, 2005 @ 6:38 am
Capt. Fubar,
If and when you decide to actually discuss one issue in depth, rather than paint with a wide and shallow brush, then, I will believe you are more than you seem.
Prehaps you would like to discuss the ICC?
Or the UN?
Or Iraq?
Human rights?
German media’s influence on the anti-American image in Germany?
Is Germany Anti-American?
Other topics advanced by this blog?
If you have no wish to discuss these or other topics, are you indeed a troll?
“In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)
I doubt my post will advance any more discussion from you than Claudia’s did.
Comment by JLWB - December 26, 2005 @ 9:01 pm
JLWB,
Herein lies the problem when people deal with issues as such, from their ‘heart’, that muscle that pumps blood but hasn’t the capacity to reason; they end up getting their ‘ass’ handed to them. Worse even, when two woman hand it to the man. I suspect he’s off licking his wounds.
It’s a lovely sentiment to want everyone to ‘join hands and buy the world a coke’, ’group hugs’, or ‘save the whales’, however, reality dictates that we need to save our own ass first. America, is in the survival of the fittest mentality and rightly so.
Personally, if it’s us or them […] have a nice trip guys! Kaboom!
Comment by Claudia - December 27, 2005 @ 12:12 am
Dear Claudia,
Thanks to our young men and women, we will not be eaten.
I do not understand how people reason!
ICC - To join the ICC we would have to give up 1/2 of the Bill of Rights.
UN - Rape, Oil for Food, bribes -the band in the Human Rights commission. - and who was suppose to be the head of the commission to insure that countries followed the ban on Weapons of Mass Distruction in March of 2003? Now the Tsunami relief funds. I know you know all of this!
I have good friends in Germany…some are American…but..many more are German! My daughter-in-law is German. They are smart, honorable people! They get really ticked when they see how wrong the reporting is in the German media!
One day, 2 of my German host sons walked in the front door as I was reading a really nice article about the 1st day of school in Germany. Well, it was really nice about the 1st day of school in Germany! In the middle of the article was a few words about how we, in Amerca send our children to school on the 1st day. We put them on a bus in the morning and hope they get home! What a crock! My host sons had seen the 1st day of school here. Yes, we put them on a bus, and then drive like hell to school so we are there when they get off the bus. Then we walk them to class and spend the rest of the day helping out in the class! And, we repeat this drill every day.
It was a little thing. But, it is typical in the German media. And, it is very harmful! American parents just send the kids on the bus and hope they get back home! I believe it is the little things, repeated over and over, that brainwash.
If Fubar doesn’t have the guts to confront 2 women…well..such is life. I’ve found that men who are sure of themselves have no problems discussing issues with women!
Please, keep posting! I learn much from you!
Comment by JLWB - December 27, 2005 @ 10:10 pm
JLWB,
While the German media is vitriolic towards anything American, the majority of American media isn’t any different. Most of what comes out of the American media as ‘fact’, is merely an op-ed or an editorial. ‘Facts’ and the ‘liberal media’ (some of the far right media, too), are never in the same room.
Have you been following the Susanne Osthoff story?
Comment by Claudia - December 28, 2005 @ 1:59 pm
» I suspect he’s off licking his wounds. «
» It’s a lovely sentiment to want everyone to ‘join hands and buy the world a coke’, ’group hugs’, or ‘save the whales’, however, reality dictates that we need to save our own ass first. America, is in the survival of the fittest mentality and rightly so.
Personally, if it’s us or them […] have a nice trip guys! Kaboom! «
You don’t really expect me to answer this utter bullshit, do you?
I’m afraid you’re too busy with generalizations as to argue with reason.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 28, 2005 @ 3:40 pm
Capt. Fubar,
Since you quoted from me, I’ll assume you are talking to me.
1. Those statement to Jane are just that, statements, (not queries to you). It would help if you knew the difference. That may be a great part of your problem. (e.g., you’re a dumb-ass)
2. I have posted links to provide you with documentation concerning WMD’s. You have conveniently straw-manned [sic] your way out of that discussion at every opportunity and resorted to discombobulated emotionalism. I don’t blame you really, as, if I had no clue as to what I was talking about, I would do the same as you.
Comment by Claudia - December 28, 2005 @ 5:58 pm
Claudia, you were addressing me. You’re ascribing my attitude to emotionalism (why?) and you haven’t answered my questions from comment n°17, althought I asked repeatedly, while dispensing reproaches. You didn’t reflect arguments that don’t conform to your opinion. There’s poor generalization in your comments (”US or THEM” for instance. Who is US and who is THEM?).
Just to clarify: I am not an “against war” Hippie and I am not an emotionalist. War is a last resort and has to be justified. But for you war seems to be a fun thing against people and countries who are different than yours. The war in Iraq was wrong and there’s plenty of rational arguments. To put it in short: Iraq didn’t do any fucking harm to you but to imperil your gasoline prices and dollar course. So whenever you drive your fucking car please keep in mind you agreed to kill approximately 30′000 to 35′000 people for this luxury. It is not emotionalism, this is not even really taking lives to save lives. It’s mere body counts and rational mindset.
Just out of curiosity: Did you have a tough childhood, Claudia?
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 28, 2005 @ 7:16 pm
Fubar
“The war in Iraq was wrong and there’s plenty of rational arguments. To put it in short: Iraq didn’t do any fucking harm to you but to imperil your gasoline prices and dollar course. So whenever you drive your fucking car please keep in mind you agreed to kill approximately 30′000 to 35′000 people for this luxury”
Terms of the cease fire: http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
US Senate resolution: http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/2003/fr012903.htm
1. No harm?
Continued assaults on our aircraft in the no fly zone. Do you feel that the zones should not have been set up?
The attempted assignation of President George H. W. Bush.
Lt. Cmdr. Michael Scott Speicher
2. Mass graves: 400,000 and still counting. Another was found this week!
3. Cost to USA for Desert Storm: 147 service members died! Between $60 to $70 BILLION spent!
Cost to the USA to maintain No Fly zones from 1991 to 2003: $1 - $2 BILLION a year.
Cost for 2003 & 2004: Over 2000 service members have died! $125 BILLION
Cost to the end of 2004 (NOT including 2005) = $187,000,000,000 to $219,000,000,000
That would buy a LOT of gas!
So, while you sit back, so sure of yourself, think about people being put into shredders, feet first, towns being gassed, children being raped and murdered in front of their parents. My own son was seeing not only the mass graves but also 5-year-old girls hung by their neck from posts. Unlike you, he was working hard, and putting his own life on the line to STOP it! I will get into my car and not complain that I could have paid far less in taxes if we had not gone in! I will not care that our gas prices are over double what they were in 2003. I will continue to send boxes to our troop filled with what they request the most, school supplies for the children of Iraq. I will thank our service members for getting rid of a person who committed genocide! And, I will think of people like you who say it is all about oil, but did NOTHING to stop the horror!
Comment by JLWB - December 28, 2005 @ 9:29 pm
Capt. Fubar,
If I wanted to live in a “socialist workers paradise“, crammed into apartments, with shitty heath care, gasoline approaching five dollars a gallon, spending the rest of my life paying for an over engineered Mercedes, […] I’d apply for German citizenship.
Just because you’re comfortable with Iraq not being a threat, doesn’t mean the United States feels the same way. Regarding 30,000 alleged dead Iraqi’s, I’ll be concerned about it when you’re concerned about 25 million dead Americans, British, Russians, Poles, French, Slaves, Jews, Gypsies, etc. murdered by German’s. WWII anybody?
The United States regards places like Syria, Iraq and Iran, as no different than Adolph Hitler’s 1930’s Germany. This time around the United States isn’t waiting for trouble to be in our face. We damn sure can’t count on the German’s to take care of business.
When a nuclear armed Iran black-mails the European’s, what are the German’s prepared to do about it? When terrorists eventually strike a European capital city with WMD, be sure and call the United Nations to resolve your problem.
I had a great child-hood, I’m an American.
Screw you and your moralizing.
Comment by Claudia - December 29, 2005 @ 2:16 am
Capt. Fubar,
Concerning your ‘emotionalism’. I have posted links that no doubt prove Saddam’s WMD’s and the threat to America and her interests, and you resorted instead to straw-man tactics. You’re not concerned with the truth, you’re too busy riding on a tsunami of anti-American emotionalism.
Comment by Claudia - December 29, 2005 @ 2:34 am
Correction: “If I wanted to live in a “socialist workers paradise“, crammed into apartments, with shitty heath care…) should read ‘health’ care.
Comment by Claudia - December 29, 2005 @ 3:53 am
You err, I have well enough researched the facts and happenings and read your links. I never said Saddam and Terrorists are good, those people have to be fought against (the what). But the way Bush has done it (the how), is wasteful, frenetic and ignorant, to put it in short. And I can’t do anything about the fact you’re into stereotyped thinking, so no rational discussion is possible anyway. However, a happy new year to you!
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 29, 2005 @ 1:16 pm
Fubar,
“I never said Saddam and Terrorists are good, those people have to be fought against (the what).” So be specific. How would YOU fight them?
“But the way Bush has done it (the how), is wasteful, frenetic and ignorant” Again, specifically, what have you found wasteful, frenetic and/or ignorant?
I hope you look around. Terriosts go after soft targets. Germany is soft. For example, Munich is such a safe place, right? Hamas members walk around in Marienplatz wearing theiir “uniforms”. There are at least 2, if not 4, U-banh entrances off of Marienplatz. No one, excpt our group, seemed to notice these people. No one watched to see where they were going or look to see if they were wearing bulky clothing.
You can be rude and call names all you like. These people are not a joke! These monsters are out to kill! Germans are an even better target than Americans if my experience in Marienplatz is any indication. The Americans in the group took note of possible danger, had cell phones out to call the police if needed, and wouldn’t have gone to the U-bahn if these jokers had headed there. The Germans in the plaza didn’t even notice that there were people wearing terriorist garb!
Ideas on how to prevent more attacks should be shared. If you have ideas how how to fix the problems, give them.
Comment by JLWB - December 29, 2005 @ 2:26 pm
JLWB,
I hear this “Bush has done a lousy job concerning terrorism” but never hear any suggestions on how we should fight terrorism instead. I suppose we could take the Jimmy Carter approach and do absolutely nothing. Better yet, build a few houses to safe-house the terrorists, you know, Habitat For Humanity but with a twist. Or maybe Bill Clinton’s approach, and lob a few air-strikes, making sure we don’t actually hit anything–all the while getting a blow job–while the terrorists are lobbing shit at us…for 8 continuous years. [sic]
Good luck having a coherent discussion with Fubar. He’s too disingenuous/egregious for my taste.
Comment by Claudia - December 29, 2005 @ 5:08 pm
Dear N. Hale, I hope you do not give up! I have found many Germans who do not fall into the hate America crowd! I’ve had German teens come to my house. One of my youngest German host sons insisted they watch a DVD of pictures my eldest son took in Iraq. After watching a DVD that asked if you had to be American to join the Us Army. Considering the stuff put on CNN and the BBC and in print in the German papers, can anyone be surprised at the anti-American attitude? I will keep talking .. keep posting….whatever it takes. We are all in danger and we all need to recognize that fact! My host kids are the children of my heart! It sounds silly and trite, but, after all these years, I love them as if they were my own! I want them SAFE!
Hi Claudia,
Let’s make that about 26 years that we have been fighting this. Iran and the take over of our embassy happened a year before my eldest was born. Then there was the marine barracks in Lebanon. Of course there was the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. (I know you were talking about the Clinton era, but, for anyone else who reads this, I want to make sure they know this problem has been long term!)
I will wait and see if Fubar gives any real answer.
In the mean time, I am serious about what I’ve seen in Germany! To prevent attacks, people must be aware of what is going on around them. The Hammas bands are not hard to spot! It could be they were just “want to be”, however, that in itself is not a comfort! Do I understand correctly that you live in Germany? I share this bit of information here, and with my host sons and daughters and their families. I do not want them to be blown up in the U-bahn! The guys, who do spot this people, US service members, are leaving Germany. My own son will be back in the USA in a month. He arrived in Germany in 1999. Germans will not only loose an effective fighting force, they will be loosing people who spot trouble.
Take care, and keep your eyes open!
Comment by JLWB - December 29, 2005 @ 8:52 pm
Capt. Fubar,
Meanwhile back in reality…
I did answer #17, read (# 18).
Let’s recap shall we?
You claimed: No WMD’s. I proved there was.
You claimed:
Capt. Fubar: “Bush didn’t adhere to UN treaties.”
Claudia asked Fubar:
What treaties? By whom? Signed when? Treaties are formally signed documents of public record. Name one…
Fubar, when you decide to stop your bullshit, I’ll be more than happy to engage further with you, until then, we are done.
A Safe and Happy New Year to You… brought to you by… the United States Military and coalition forces.
Comment by Claudia - December 30, 2005 @ 3:22 am
JLWB,
Wearing specific clothing and being a terrorist are two things. No terrorist would wear a garb in the city. Thinking this way is not just silly, it’s dangerous.
Claudia,
How to fight terrorism effectively?
First off, don’t give them money, weapons and drugs to fight YOU.
This is what the honorable United States of America / CIA have been doing long years with your taxes, in order to intervene with remote politics or overthrow them. As a result your government has been raising evil despot regimes and terrorist camps all over the world. Thank you.
Second, don’t give them reason to fight you.
The way you, Claudia, and your conservative friends are so horny into bombing and invading countries, is reason enough for them to just think of doing the same to you. Not until then comes democracy vs. mullahs. Didn’t you realize there wasn’t a single attack scheduled for Germany?
Third, if you have to fight terrorists, do so.
But keep in mind these terrorists you want to fight are not as stupid as you think they are. They don’t wear garbs during attack, but you want to fuck anyone who does so. They know how to communicate secure, they really do, but your Patriot Act (and many new German laws here) are into controlling citizens and treating them as usual criminals. Most measures to fight terrorists fight anyone of us but not the terrorists themselves.
Fourth, Saddam could have been put down without killing as many as 35′000 people.
There are trained special forces in US and other countries for this job. Look at this number, 35′000, and start to use your brain, Claudia. Many cases were reported by independent journalists of innocent people killed by US armed forces. This world is not all about killing everyone suspicious just to save your own ass, but they have done so, many times, for instance everyone has heard about the “all innocent people shot in a school bus which just didn’t stop immediately” story. But hell, yeah, lets just get all those evil Arabs and roast them anyway, duh.
Fifth, don’t send US/UK undercover agents to do the terrorists’ jobs: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4263648.stm .
Your conservative attitude, Claudia, isn’t too different from the attitude of many terrorists.
Happy new year.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 31, 2005 @ 2:36 pm
Btw, Saddam had no connection to 9/11 and no weapons of mass destruction (unlike US). You seem to think different: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/21/21682/1.html
And I have answered most of your questions, you just don’t read carefully.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - December 31, 2005 @ 2:47 pm
Capt. Fubar,
Coming from a German whose country sold Saddam most of his WMD related production equipment, your opinion is laughable.
You’re wrong, Saddam did have WMD’s and had used it. The query now is, “where the hell did they go?.” Had you actually read the links I provided–which show undisputable facts, we would not be having this conversation. Again, your anti-American emotionalism is clouding these facts.
Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi, an associate and collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda lieutenants, set up a an explosives training camp in Northeastern Iraq after the ousting of the Taliban via coalition forces. This was “pre-Iraqi war“.(Operation Enduring Freedom)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2003/09/sec-030929-usia01.htm
Capt. Fubar, I realize you won’t read the above provided link, but this small piece is concerning Germany, so I pasted it here for you. Happy reading …dear!
Since September 11, 2001, 173 countries have issued blocking orders to freeze terrorist assets totaling $136.8 worldwide, the press release said.
The United States has listed 320 individuals and organizations as terrorists and terrorist supporters, the press release said.
Following is the text of the press release:
(begin text)
FROM THE OFFICE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
September 24, 2003
JS-757
Treasury Designates Six Al-Qaida Terrorists
- The U.S. Treasury today announced that it has designated six individuals as Specially Designated Global Terrorists (SDGTs) under Executive Order 13224, freezing any assets in the U.S. and prohibiting transactions with U.S. nationals. Today’s action comes in coordination with the listing of these individuals by the United Nations. The UN action requires all UN Member States to freeze without delay any assets belonging to these individuals.
The list, submitted to the UN by Germany, includes Abu Musa’ab Al-Zarqawi (also known as Ahmed Fadil Al-Khalayleh, among other aliases), who provided financial and other support to the terrorists who assassinated U.S. diplomat Laurence Foley in Amman, Jordan last October. Zarqawi has also been involved in smuggling terrorists into Israel, has arranged training for Jordanian terrorists in al-Qaida camps. In his speech to the United Nations Security Council last February, Secretary of State Powell revealed that under the regime of Saddam Hussein, Zarqawi and his network found refuge in Iraq and Zarqawi himself was treated in a Baghdad hospital. Zarqawi’s network also established a poisons and explosives training camp in Northwest Iraq.
Also designated are members of Zarqawi’s German-based terrorist cell Al Tawhid, an organization with close links to al-Qaida. The German government has established that Zarqawi serves as the operational leader of the cell.
This action underscores the international commitment to fight terrorist financing. Since September 11, 2001, 173 countries have issued blocking orders to freeze assets, and $136.8 million has been frozen worldwide. With today’s designation, the U.S. has now listed a total of 320 individuals and organizations as terrorists and terrorist supporters since September 11, 2001.
The following individuals were designated today:
Abu Musa’ab AL-ZARQAWI
Mohamed ABU DHESS
Shadi ABDALLA
Aschraf AL-DAGMA
Ismail SHALABI
Djamel MOUSTFA
Comment by Claudia - January 1, 2006 @ 5:26 am
Read it.
«Zarqawi himself was treated in a Baghdad hospital»
Is this a justification for a war with 35′000 deaths?
Two things:
(1) WMD
Your “facts” is a early speech by Mr Powell, whose job is to form opinions, not to form facts.
«It was Powell who told the United Nations and the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and posed an imminent threat. He told Walters that he feels “terrible” about the claims he made in that now-infamous address — assertions that later proved to be false.
When asked if he feels it has tarnished his reputation, he said, “Of course it will. It’s a blot. I’m the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and [it] will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It’s painful now.”»
Taken from http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Politics/story?id=1105979&page=1 .
So where the hell did the WMD go?
(2) www.globalsecurity.org and the link Mr Warmonger postet on his blog, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html, are governmental links from before 2005. I have read it. Now, you again read (1) and repeat your “undisputable facts” statement.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 1, 2006 @ 9:05 am
JLWB,
A Most Safe and Happy New Year, to you and yours.
Comment by Claudia - January 1, 2006 @ 10:19 am
Claudia
While you said I haven’t read your links you obviously haven’t read mine.
While you call me an emotionalist it’s obvious you’re just into the war thing itself.
While you quote governmental sites it’s fun to see how the governments make you think whatever they want you to think, being afraid of whatever they want you to be afraid of and permitting them to do whatever they want.
You’re just another F.U.D. victim.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 1, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
Capt. Fubar,
This isn’t about me being ”into the war”, it’s about “facts concerning the war“. I’ve given you undisputable facts and you’ve given ad nauseam rhetoric and not a damn thing more.
Your biggest concern isn’t Iraq anyway, it’s Iran. ‘Cause…if Iran gets their hands on the right war-head, they have the capability to hit Berlin and other European cities. Your naiveté will get you killed. The terrorists don’t just want to kill American’s, they want to kill German’s too! Whether you like it or not Fubar, Germany needs America and America won’t put up with Germany’s treasonous anti-America shit much longer. Not to worry, you’ll always have your butt-buddy France to bail you out. Good fucking luck!
I’m done with your nonsense.
Comment by Claudia - January 1, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
Claudia, I’d like to repeat myself:
- War on despot countries is not the same as war on terrorism. But hell, yeah, let’s kill all them bad guys anyway.
- Your «undisputable facts» are governmental propaganda, much of it has already been denied by the very people who distributed it.
- US/UK secret services are terrorists. Who would fight them?
- You take this whole thing personal.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 4, 2006 @ 2:22 am
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
History repeats itself.
Claudia, if you’re to weak to dispute don’t talk about undisputable things.
Comment by Capt. Fubar - January 4, 2006 @ 2:31 am